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Built 65 Guys And Your 3-4 Clutch Pack


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What do you have and/or prefer. What has proven to be the best?

1. Red Eagle 3-4 clutch pack OR

2. Raysbestos Z-pak

 

I burned the zpack up before the latest rebuild (current) and now run the red eagle clutches because I was told they were better, but now feel I have another 3-4 problem after making several dyno pulls in third gear Saturday. the 3-4 is very mushy and 3 feels like it want to lock and unlock the TC when pulling hard????? Getting sick and tired of this tranny crap.

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The ZPak is the WORST excuse for a 3-4 clutch ever put on the market for the 4L60 - f'n RUN from anyone who uses this piece of crap. Alto commercial red "hi energy" 3-4 clutch, and use the 700R4 setup so you can fit in another friction. Use the thickest steels you can find. Internal hydraulic mods are also necessary to help the 3-4 clutch in an extreme build, including plugging-off the #3 accumulator... The converter should not be locking/unlocking the converter at all on the stock tune; did you change your converter lockup strategy?

 

Mr. P.

Edited by Mr. P. (see edit history)
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The Z-Pack if installed properly isn't too terrible bad when running alot of pressure to it, but I wouldn't use it in anything with more than about 450 flywheel hp. The best luck I've had is with the stock replacement 4L65E clutch's and the Raybestos Blue Plates. I've had a few customers break the input drum before on the 2-3 shift and can only recall very few ever having the 3-4 clutch set fail. I'm not much of a fan of the Red Eagles myself. I've used them in many applications, but have found them to fail under heavy load even under high line pressures. I've had one Camaro kill 3 set's and every time it was from shifting into OD at wide open. On the same hand I've seen trucks like Infinus's or SSMineapolis break the hard parts long before the stock clutch's even had signs of wear issue's. The CHP magazine truck had over 200 or so passes on it's stock 65E when we did a teardown and the clutch's we pulled out looked like they came out of a stock daily driven SSS with the same milage. These trucks all had shift kits with billet servo's, but all held together fine. Matt Walls truck with the same shift kit and servo's also broke the input drum long before any wear appeared running a 150 shot (with blue plate's, but had run a ton of passes on the stock clutches without failure). Frank's truck as everyone has seen has made many passes at the strip and on the street with big burnouts and as of late with an L92 headed 370 and 15psi of boost without failure on the stock 65E clutch set. I've also ran Infinus's truck well into OD at wide open (truck ran 12's with a Radix and a cam) many times on the stock clutches.

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I have the Red Eagle clutches and 'full thickness" Kolene steels right now. And not really sure that this is the prob, but copuld be. My tranny builer is coming by tommorrow to chekc and see if 'maybe" the 4th gear super servo's pin is out of adjustment. It is acting like it was after my latest build ~1 month ago(not holding 4th under load and very mushy 3-4 shift)....so we put in a new 4th servo pin...fixed the problem until now now approx 1 month later doing it again/??? The only thing that may be different this time interms of symptoms is I dion't remember the 2-3 getting mushy...does that have anyting to do with the 4th gera servo? My tuner has my shiting set up way different than bryan at pcmforless used to have it...(it is set up to shift into fourth under normal driving/cruising very soon instead of the "old" 50-60 mph shift under normal driving. I now find myself lugging around all the time in 4th when previoulsy in would have been in a loower gear...I am sure this has added to the stress load on that servo anmd plan to get this changed immediately even if it "cuts down on mileage"

 

And yes Zippy I had very good success with the stock clutches too...they held for 50k miles......I endedn up grenading all the HARD parts, with never any clutch slip. And to be honest the zpak held for a while and the only reason I think it failed is becjuse I drove aournd on a bad 2-4 band for a cuople of weeks, thus putting a lot of extra stress on everything else and buring it up in the process, including melting all the little rubber seals aroudn the servo.

Edited by BlackSSS SC'd (see edit history)
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The converter should not be locking/unlocking the converter at all on the stock tune; did you change your converter lockup strategy?

 

Mr. P.

 

Mr P,

 

On the dyno the other day my tuner said we could put 5more whp down to break the 500 mark by locking the converter up...He "TRIED" with Hp tuners to lock, but abruptly got off it at about 4k saying it did not lock??? It was as if he noticed something not looking or feelong good and quickly shutting it down. Before we did this he asked me if I really wanted to try this, apparently this is not good on a stock converter...??...

 

BTW my baseline this time was 10rwhp lower than last time and probably due to the new 22inch chrome rims insteadof stock 20s, also this dyno reads 10% lower than all other dynos around here. I am going to the superflow dyno tommorow to get an accurate reading with graph and stock wheels. I am confident that I am putting over 500whp now : ) results tommorow.

Edited by BlackSSS SC'd (see edit history)
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... apparently this is not good on a stock converter...??

It's not good on the stock converter at all, the converter lockup clutch is really weak and glazes/burns easily under this kind of use. You need an aftermarket converter with a heavy-duty lockup clutch to do this.

 

Mr. P.

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Make sure your tuner has the shift lock turned off. If you want to dyno the truck with the converter locked in make sure that he sets up a seperate calibration for the dyno and lock the converter in before you go wide open. If the converter is locked in as you roll into the throttle slippage shouldn't be a problem, but still can be with a stock converter. Locking it in once you're on the throttle is where it is very hard on it.

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Make sure your tuner has the shift lock turned off. If you want to dyno the truck with the converter locked in make sure that he sets up a seperate calibration for the dyno and lock the converter in before you go wide open. If the converter is locked in as you roll into the throttle slippage shouldn't be a problem, but still can be with a stock converter. Locking it in once you're on the throttle is where it is very hard on it.

 

I dont think I will take any more chances with teh stock TC.....now just hope I have a minor adjustment somtwhere and have not incurred any more damage....looking through e700r4.com/

it looks like there were several little, but important things that could have/should have been put in that werent in the last build:

1. oversized 3-4 relay and 4-3 sequence valve kits

2. 4L65E oversize .490" pressure boost valve ( have this but its 70k mile old)

3. new AFL valve

4. PWM Power-Valve

5. new 1-2 accumulator spring

6. 4L65E Pinless accumulator piston

7. 4L60E high output pump slide spring

8. 3 accum piston not blocked off

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...it looks like there were several little, but important things that could have/should have been put in that werent in the last build:[/b]

1. oversized 3-4 relay and 4-3 sequence valve kits

2. 4L65E oversize .490" pressure boost valve ( have this but its 70k mile old)

3. new AFL valve

4. PWM Power-Valve

5. new 1-2 accumulator spring

6. 4L65E Pinless accumulator piston

7. 4L60E high output pump slide spring

8. 3 accum piston not blocked off

Items 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 - should have been included in your shift kit.

 

Item 6 - you don't need the pinless accumulator piston, just make sure you have aluminum ones with good seals.

 

Item 8 - this is an advanced and controversial move, few do this but I have seen it done with great results. If you don't want to outright block off the #3 accumulator then run a billet 2nd servo as this reduces the #3 accumulator and really firms up the 2-3 shift.

 

Mr. P.

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Items 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 - should have been included in your shift kit.

 

Item 6 - you don't need the pinless accumulator piston, just make sure you have aluminum ones with good seals.

 

Item 8 - this is an advanced and controversial move, few do this but I have seen it done with great results. If you don't want to outright block off the #3 accumulator then run a billet 2nd servo as this reduces the #3 accumulator and really firms up the 2-3 shift.

 

Mr. P.

 

Never have ran an actual "shift kit" I have been told by PATC (www.transmissioncenter.net) that you either do servos OR shift kit....never both..??

tranny contrains the following:

 

overdrive and 2nd gear billet SUPER servos

kevlar 2-4 band

all red eagle clutches and kolene steels

.490 boost valve

Beast reaction shell

Extreme Duty front planet

Extreme Duty rear planet

29 element Borg Warner forward input sprag

and maybe a couple of other little things I am forgetting....not a real elaborate build, but should be getiting the job done.

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