bruiser04 Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 this is the exact thing that happened to me the reason it ran when he first started it up is cause it was cold and running closed loop (or open i get those 2 mixed up) once it warmed up and ran off the sensors it doesnt know what to do..... i bet u my next 5 paychecks that if u put it in neutral and keep ur foot on the throttle at 5% it wil run and u wont hear a tick maybe just the springs....do what chp special said get it tuned by a tuner and maybe let ur buddy study that tune chp special did my cam and tuned it and everything u r saying is goin on is what i had to the T. chp tuned it and i havent had a problem no knock slap shimmy or anything but the cam is lumpy i love it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chpspecial Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Here, have your friend follow this tutorial by Krambo. idle tuning Rule out the tune before you buy more parts. Also, if you want to completely rule out the push rods, do a leak down test and see if your valves are not closing all the way. Once again, tuning cams is not a one hour ordeal, they take time, which means you need to be patient with your friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowsniper3006 Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 i am not doing the tune myself a buddy is and he "says he is familar with hp tuners and he has a lsx454 01 SS Camaro that he tuned" i know foresure he knows the basics with HPT but not sure on how much he knows.. i just figured i would have him tune it cuz i live in joplin, missouri.. no close places around here to have it tuned in person or a dyno tune which i really would rather due.. thats why i didnt have justin re-tune my pcm i had cuz it was mail order.. i know justin could get it down pretty good with mail order not like he could in person i know, but thats why i went with my buddy cuz he could log everything it was doing and so on.. and he has done all the work to the motor.. we pulled the heads to put the new LS7 Lifters in and i put the PRC .650lift springs, 7.4 pushrods but left the rockers stock.. now he said he tourqued them down the right way to 22ftlbs.. i put a Roll-master Double Roller timing chain on it, and LS6 Ported oil pump.. he says he knows he has the cam degreed right and lined up dot to dot.. with all the racket it is making you can tell its not a exhaust leak,.. it sounds just like metal on metal hitting.. he thinks its i have too long of pushrods.. which yes that could be possible but also him not knowing on how to tune it could be the reason too? right? so i wanna try that before i go spending money on pushrods when that isnt even the problem. i could smell gas when he was cranking on it.. but i guess right before i got there he said it ran and idled for 10mins.. and thats tru cuz he showed me the log on HPT and thats when we looked at the KR and it was going nuts then it leveled out at 0 then jumped all the way up to 8.0.. but after that he couldnt get it to stay running when i got there it chug and shake and die but mostly he would just be cranking on it forever.. so im just trying to get an idea of what could be wrong and what i should do first? thanks guys Stupid question but i have to ask, when the heads were off and you changed lifters, you put the lifter trays back in right? was your oil pressure ok when it was running? Did you have a wideband hooked up when you started it? Did your buddy look at the fuel trims when he was letting it idle so he could tune it? or does he have it running in speed d for initial tuning? You still haven't said where the noise is coming from? Is it from the bellhousing of the trans, is it from the timing cover, is it under the valve cover? Go to autozone and get a stethoscope so you can listen to the rocker arms through the valve cover and header tubes. Did your buddy look at the log and make sure your MAF and MAP are working? maybe you forgot to plug them in. Its not hard to check preload on the lifters, pull the valve cover and watch the rocker arms. when you rotate the motor, by hand, you'll see the intake open and close when it closes and you rotate the motor a little more you'll see both rockers will not move because your on the compression stroke and the base circle of the cam not the lobe. Unbolt the rocker arms and then turn the screw until either the push rod stops spinning easily, or if you have a good feel for clearance you can stop raising the rocker arm up, or if you have a dial indicator you can tighten the screw until you see the indicator move on the back of the rocker arm. Then put a line on the screw head and count how many times the line goes around until tight and torqued. You have to figure out how many thousandths are in one turn of the bolt and then times that by the number of times it turned. I think the bolts is 8x1.25 but you'd have to search to find out. If it was a 1/4-20 it would be 1 divided by 20 threads per inch=.050. So one turn of the screw after you set 0 lash is .050 preload on the lifter. I think GM has them set at .062 from the factory, i think they bottom out at .125 and i have mine set at .020. I use a indicator to check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frey Posted August 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) Stupid question but i have to ask, when the heads were off and you changed lifters, you put the lifter trays back in right? was your oil pressure ok when it was running? Did you have a wideband hooked up when you started it? Did your buddy look at the fuel trims when he was letting it idle so he could tune it? or does he have it running in speed d for initial tuning? You still haven't said where the noise is coming from? Is it from the bellhousing of the trans, is it from the timing cover, is it under the valve cover? Go to autozone and get a stethoscope so you can listen to the rocker arms through the valve cover and header tubes. Did your buddy look at the log and make sure your MAF and MAP are working? maybe you forgot to plug them in. Its not hard to check preload on the lifters, pull the valve cover and watch the rocker arms. when you rotate the motor, by hand, you'll see the intake open and close when it closes and you rotate the motor a little more you'll see both rockers will not move because your on the compression stroke and the base circle of the cam not the lobe. Unbolt the rocker arms and then turn the screw until either the push rod stops spinning easily, or if you have a good feel for clearance you can stop raising the rocker arm up, or if you have a dial indicator you can tighten the screw until you see the indicator move on the back of the rocker arm. Then put a line on the screw head and count how many times the line goes around until tight and torqued. You have to figure out how many thousandths are in one turn of the bolt and then times that by the number of times it turned. I think the bolts is 8x1.25 but you'd have to search to find out. If it was a 1/4-20 it would be 1 divided by 20 threads per inch=.050. So one turn of the screw after you set 0 lash is .050 preload on the lifter. I think GM has them set at .062 from the factory, i think they bottom out at .125 and i have mine set at .020. I use a indicator to check. yeah the lifter trays went back in.. he does have a wideband hooked up when he starts it and the oil pressure was at 50.. so it was good the whole time it didnt flucuate or nothing. we finally got it to fire and stay running like 30 mins ago but once again its got that afful loud tick. the motor shakes a little but not enough to hit anything. he hasnt got to do really anything with it today.. but tomorrow we will.. and for where the noise is coming from we didnt have much time today to really listen but it did sound like the sounds were coming from the valve covers or the bell housing... its not in the front of the motor.. Edited August 8, 2011 by 1BadSilvy (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frey Posted August 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Here, have your friend follow this tutorial by Krambo. idle tuning Rule out the tune before you buy more parts. Also, if you want to completely rule out the push rods, do a leak down test and see if your valves are not closing all the way. Once again, tuning cams is not a one hour ordeal, they take time, which means you need to be patient with your friend. we both are being patient thats why i got on here to find out a little more info, and to help the both of us out on this thing.. were gonna do a leak down test tomorrow. and also start it in neutral and put throttle at 5% and see if that works before i go buy new parts.. it just sucks cuz i start college here in 2 weeks and my truck is my DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frey Posted August 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 this is the exact thing that happened to me the reason it ran when he first started it up is cause it was cold and running closed loop (or open i get those 2 mixed up) once it warmed up and ran off the sensors it doesnt know what to do..... i bet u my next 5 paychecks that if u put it in neutral and keep ur foot on the throttle at 5% it wil run and u wont hear a tick maybe just the springs....do what chp special said get it tuned by a tuner and maybe let ur buddy study that tune chp special did my cam and tuned it and everything u r saying is goin on is what i had to the T. chp tuned it and i havent had a problem no knock slap shimmy or anything but the cam is lumpy i love it yeah were gonna try this tomorrow.. thanks for the info in helping me out im glad you chimmed in and basically had the same problem.. i hope this is the case!! lol but ill let everyone know how it does tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruiser04 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 yeah were gonna try this tomorrow.. thanks for the info in helping me out im glad you chimmed in and basically had the same problem.. i hope this is the case!! lol but ill let everyone know how it does tomorrow G\L with everything buddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprayed99 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 what he had was rotor slap from the radix... what you have sounds more like the lifters may not be "primed" or "pumped up" as some say and it will cause a nasty noise until they a full of oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frey Posted August 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 what he had was rotor slap from the radix... what you have sounds more like the lifters may not be "primed" or "pumped up" as some say and it will cause a nasty noise until they a full of oil. the noise is coming from the valave covers... the lifters were soaking in oil for 4 days before they went in the truck.. we were thinking it was maybe the pushrods being too long?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frey Posted August 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 what he had was rotor slap from the radix... what you have sounds more like the lifters may not be "primed" or "pumped up" as some say and it will cause a nasty noise until they a full of oil. and if they werent primed or pumped up how long would it take for them to fill up with oil running?? im just scared to let it idle sounding like that and the pushrods be too long and hurt something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprayed99 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) and if they werent primed or pumped up how long would it take for them to fill up with oil running?? im just scared to let it idle sounding like that and the pushrods be too long and hurt something the lifters will sound like they are coming from the top.... 30seconds and they should settle down... A hydraulic lifter just sitting in oil does nothing for them at all other than lubricating the roller. Pushrods that are too short will sound the same way. Just measure them its easy to do.... This is the unprecise way but it will get you an idea of where you are. Turning the engine, bring one of the cylinders to TDC on the compression stroke. The valves on that cyl. will be fully closed. 2. Now, fully loosen one of the rocker arm bolts on that cyl. 3. Then start turning the rocker arm bolt down until the lifter is at "zero lash". You will be able to tell it is at zero lash when the rocker bolt gets very hard to turn. It gets hard to turn because the valve spring starts to compress. Again, stop turning the bolt as soon as you feel resistance to turning. or giggle the rocker and watch for contact on the pushrod and the valve tip. 4. Mark the bolt with a marker. 5. Now count how many turns it takes to completely tighten the rocker bolt to 22 FT/LB. The bolt should have turned between 1.5 to 2 turns for the acceptable GM lifter peload. If you don't get the 1.5 to 2 bolt turns of preload, you need a different length pushrod. (IE: longer rod if it takes much more than 2 turns, and a shorter rod if it takes much less than 1.5 turns). I don't do this as I have the correct tools to measure preload but this method has been used for years over on the LS1 tech board wiuth good sucess. Edited August 8, 2011 by Sprayed99 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frey Posted August 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 the lifters will sound like they are coming from the top.... 30seconds and they should settle down... A hydraulic lifter just sitting in oil does nothing for them at all other than lubricating the roller. Pushrods that are too short will sound the same way. Just measure them its easy to do.... This is the unprecise way but it will get you an idea of where you are. Turning the engine, bring one of the cylinders to TDC on the compression stroke. The valves on that cyl. will be fully closed. 2. Now, fully loosen one of the rocker arm bolts on that cyl. 3. Then start turning the rocker arm bolt down until the lifter is at "zero lash". You will be able to tell it is at zero lash when the rocker bolt gets very hard to turn. It gets hard to turn because the valve spring starts to compress. Again, stop turning the bolt as soon as you feel resistance to turning. or giggle the rocker and watch for contact on the pushrod and the valve tip. 4. Mark the bolt with a marker. 5. Now count how many turns it takes to completely tighten the rocker bolt to 22 FT/LB. The bolt should have turned between 1.5 to 2 turns for the acceptable GM lifter peload. If you don't get the 1.5 to 2 bolt turns of preload, you need a different length pushrod. (IE: longer rod if it takes much more than 2 turns, and a shorter rod if it takes much less than 1.5 turns). I don't do this as I have the correct tools to measure preload but this method has been used for years over on the LS1 tech board wiuth good sucess. we are gonna do a leak down test today to see.. but i will try this method also. and on those lifters my truck has been started 3 times since the install and ran for like maybe a couple mins and it seems to get a little worse when it warms up.. and wat should i have done with the lifters instead of just soaking them in oil?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprayed99 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 we are gonna do a leak down test today to see.. but i will try this method also. and on those lifters my truck has been started 3 times since the install and ran for like maybe a couple mins and it seems to get a little worse when it warms up.. and wat should i have done with the lifters instead of just soaking them in oil?? take a pushrod while the lifter is in the oil and plunge the top of the lifter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frey Posted August 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 take a pushrod while the lifter is in the oil and plunge the top of the lifter. i wish i could get a video clip of it up so you guys could hear it.. i dont know if that would help narrow things down a lot better.. its like a chattering sound coming from the valve cover.. seems to me it could be pushrods or the lifters not picking up oil.. but you would think after running a coulple of mins they would pick up oil? and if that havent picked up oil yet what could be the problem wit that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprayed99 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 i wish i could get a video clip of it up so you guys could hear it.. i dont know if that would help narrow things down a lot better.. its like a chattering sound coming from the valve cover.. seems to me it could be pushrods or the lifters not picking up oil.. but you would think after running a coulple of mins they would pick up oil? and if that havent picked up oil yet what could be the problem wit that? did you check to make sure all of the rockers are tight? Also what is your oil pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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