slowfive0 Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Ok, I've read tons of good debates on this subject and even had some threads about it, but I'm still over the page on which direction to go now that I'm almost there. Basically, I have 163,000 miles on my current setup and it is not long for this world. I want to continue to drive my truck year round and use it. I also want it to run 10's (no nitrous). That may be a stretch while keeping its utility/reliability, but I think it is possible----worst case a pulley change or boost controller tweak when I want to turn it up or down. Back to reality, I would probably be happy with low 11's (mid 11's in summer) while staying within some semblance of a budget. 2 areas I'm battling around: 1. Engine If I rebuild it, it would probably make sense to do the stroker (408 more then likely). Flip side, I could just throw a good used 6.0 in it. There have been a ton of stock 6.0's (maybe with good head gaskets/bolts) running fast with turbos........ 2. Power adder I like both so that is a non-issue. I think the turbo will get me there easier and will be more flexible for my needs. My wife has an Ecoboost equipped vehicle and I must say I really like the way it drives.....I have a great fab guy for the turbo kit so I'm leaning that way right now. Thoughts, experiences, feedback? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverado777 Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 408 Stroker, LS3 heads, good blower cam, TVS 2300 and call it done. Just my opinion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 That is how I was leaning before (and may still go), but when you put it on paper the waters get muddied up quick! I love superchargers, but they aren't exactly cheap. Jack shaft blower drive, pullies/cogs to get the drive ratio you want, 8 rib pulley setup, pullies for blower, phenolic spacers, 102mm tb, etc----gets expensive.... My fab guy is reasonable and would build me up a turbo kit for comparable pricing (if not cheaper). When it comes to the turbos, it seems like you can get away with using a smaller engine and tighter converters and still get the performance. Also, when building big power with a supercharger, there is power that is consumed driving the unit. In other words the fuel system has to be able to support more power then the engine is putting out at the crankshaft to drive the blower too. Maybe 75-100hp? I know in the big procharger stuff I play with (race car), that number can be 150-200+ hp!!!! So in other words, I might be able to get away with a lot less fuel system (less $$$$'s) with a turbo too.... 408 Stroker, LS3 heads, good blower cam, TVS 2300 and call it done. Just my opinion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverad0 SS Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 408, pp heads, mild cam, 80mm turbo 13psi should be plenty lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Will probably be the direction I go unless something else good falls in my lap. Probably just do the 408 with "future" plans of either a turbo or bigger s/c.......Decisions, decisions...... I would really like to see what Chase runs with his when he gets it dialed in and leans on it more. 408, pp heads, mild cam, 80mm turbo 13psi should be plenty lol Edited February 9, 2012 by slowfive0 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detjoe Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 fab the turbo. Blow the dieing motor and/or Blow the 4L65e 4L80e swap, beef up AWD convert to 4WD ?? Blow second JY motor and decide to build better long block, but if your turbo is sized right you wont need to add extra c.i. Up the boost, break more stuff...sounds like so much fun! I just dont think you will go fast enough for you on that head unit. But if you go turbo the truck it self loses some if its reliability, but any 10sec ride is going to be a hand full fore sure. Who/ HOw do you think the turbo would layout?? I am tired of this winter here too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted February 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 LOL!!! Talk about rain on someones parade----LMAO----j/k! You do make a lot of sense though and is probably what will happen if I don't do it right from the get go. I should just put a jy motor in it, pull the blower off and leave it alone ;-) That would be logical and make sense---of course that isn't me lol. I never make sense when it comes to this hobby ;-) As far as the turbo, I would have Diamond Fabrication do it. He's in Warren and is the whip!!!! Very anal and a perfectionist. He's done a ton of turbo kits, etc. Actually, he is doing the intercooler tubing and headers on my mustang as we speak. Very cool guy. Zippy recommended an 88mm unit with the 408 IIRC. I'm thinking possibly that route or maybe some smaller twins. What I would like to end up with ultimately is turbos that spool extremely fast and a setup that allows me to use a near stock stall. Actually, the beauty of the turbo setup is the converter "should" be able to be real tight when cruising around, but should loosen up under boost if that makes any sense. Meaning the extra torque will raise the stall speed. I probably should talk to Precision or Circle D and get their thoughts..... I'm really up in the air with regards to the single vs twins....... Another spin-----------I could or probably "should" just put a jy 6.0 together with a 2300 (non-jackshaft) or even a 1900, pick up 2-4 tenths and call it a day. Maybe do the 408 with the 1900 or 2300 (non-jackshaft) and call it a day......Sigh....................................... fab the turbo. Blow the dieing motor and/or Blow the 4L65e 4L80e swap, beef up AWD convert to 4WD ?? Blow second JY motor and decide to build better long block, but if your turbo is sized right you wont need to add extra c.i. Up the boost, break more stuff...sounds like so much fun! I just dont think you will go fast enough for you on that head unit. But if you go turbo the truck it self loses some if its reliability, but any 10sec ride is going to be a hand full fore sure. Who/ HOw do you think the turbo would layout?? I am tired of this winter here too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detjoe Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 single, screw the twins...I wonder how much what you are saying about the converter would apply?? Guess I am skeptical that you could get that many more RPM's out. Are there any times for 6.0L Larger Frame turbo SS's?? I know there has to be one. Gonna be an interesting spring if all these guys who now have TVS blowers and some have the spacer too are going to get times or what HP would you have to shoot for to run your goal of 10.99? Since you are local you might understand this, but I am constantly looking for a new take off blower from a ctsv or vette. I know too many people and with GM local....and the new rotors would be another supercharger route that allows you to keep that exhaust you just built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) I think you're right. Obviously, the twins would add at least another 500-1200 expense and probably aren't worth it with the technology advances made in the turbo market today. Not sure what you mean by the rpms? As far as the converter remarks, what I was trying to convey was in the "race car" or really fast street car scene a lot of guys will run a big turbo setup with a glide and a high (low numerical) gear in the rearend. So the car cruises nice at low rpms, but when you boost it up the power (torque) will make what seemed like a tight non-existent converter loose enough. Very hard to get the converter right on those cars, either doesn't want to spool or wants to blow through it. My application with the heavy ass vehicle where I really want a tight tight converter may not be as easy or even possible. To be honest, I think I have my direction yet again. I forgot about that combo Zippy and ???? were doing. 408 plus 2300-----went 11.60's in heat and very close (maybe already did) to 10's. That would be a great setup! Problem is, if I have to have a jackshaft blower, phenolic spacer, 102mm tb, 408, etc the cost would almost push towards or maybe well past a properly sized turbo kit..........................There's my dilemma... single, screw the twins...I wonder how much what you are saying about the converter would apply?? Guess I am skeptical that you could get that many more RPM's out. Are there any times for 6.0L Larger Frame turbo SS's?? I know there has to be one. Gonna be an interesting spring if all these guys who now have TVS blowers and some have the spacer too are going to get times or what HP would you have to shoot for to run your goal of 10.99? Since you are local you might understand this, but I am constantly looking for a new take off blower from a ctsv or vette. I know too many people and with GM local....and the new rotors would be another supercharger route that allows you to keep that exhaust you just built. Edited February 12, 2012 by slowfive0 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahoBLKss Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 408 Stroker, LS3 heads, good blower cam, TVS 2300 and call it done. Just my opinion though. this sounds great if you want the ultimate burn out machine lol not to mention that youll be about 10 deep in the blower and supporting mods for it plus another 5k + in the block . if you go this route i hope you invest in some serious suspension and have slicks on all 4 corners for getting first and second to hook , but this combo will look great on a dyno , kinda like the supras that put down 1200 hp on a dyno and lay down a 12 second pass lol That is how I was leaning before (and may still go), but when you put it on paper the waters get muddied up quick! I love superchargers, but they aren't exactly cheap. Jack shaft blower drive, pullies/cogs to get the drive ratio you want, 8 rib pulley setup, pullies for blower, phenolic spacers, 102mm tb, etc----gets expensive.... My fab guy is reasonable and would build me up a turbo kit for comparable pricing (if not cheaper). When it comes to the turbos, it seems like you can get away with using a smaller engine and tighter converters and still get the performance. Also, when building big power with a supercharger, there is power that is consumed driving the unit. In other words the fuel system has to be able to support more power then the engine is putting out at the crankshaft to drive the blower too. Maybe 75-100hp? I know in the big procharger stuff I play with (race car), that number can be 150-200+ hp!!!! So in other words, I might be able to get away with a lot less fuel system (less $$'s) with a turbo too.... keep the 2 out of 3 rule in mind when building (cheap-fast-reliable ) choose 2 because you cant have all 3. on a serious not i would go turbo or procharged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detjoe Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 850 RWHP would get us a 10.91 850 X 1.30= 1105 HP @ flywheel http://www.squirrelp...n=1&map_sel0=97 http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/graph.php?version=4&pr0=1&pr1=1.07&pr2=2.17&pr3=3.28&pr4=3.28&pr5=3.28&pr6=3.28&pr7=3.28&airflow0=6.7&airflow1=21.8&airflow2=50&airflow3=84&airflow4=99.9&airflow5=110&airflow6=122.5&airflow7=130&product_id=97 So if I put in the 1100HP goal...and some other misc data and then plot it against the cheap box turbo, I get this. I am no expert but the middle seems like a good place, thru the major island would also seem good, and away from the surge line. I also think it means the turbo is not max'd only at 76% of its efficiency. am I reading this wrong? What I am saying with the converter is that I am stalling at less that what I want, 2700 vs 3200. How safe is it to think that with the added torque that I will get those 500RPM's in the stall speed. This ,like you have said, is critical in setting a turbo up and the map above meanx little of I cannot predict the sweet spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANGRYGREG Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I went through this same debate in with myself for a while. I love the way a turbo sounds and thought that was what I was gonna do but I decided to go with a jackshaft TVS 2300. Ray just shipped me one with his inlet and spacer and its getting installed right now. I love magnacharger and I haven't had any issues with it for years. TVS and 408 should get you pretty low 11's I vote TVS but its your truck man good luck Btw Im pretty sure 750 rwhp will get you a 10.99 in perfect conditions, no wheel slip. There are some other threads on here about this Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Wow! A lot of great feedback---thanks guys! 1. How much are jackshaft tvs2300 blowers going for (good guy pricing)? 2. Do they require a cog on the back and what does that add to the cost of the kit? 3. Is a 10rib setup needed or will an 8 rib setup suffice? These cost about $900-1100 iirc? 4. 102mm tb is about $700 iirc? 5. With a 408/tvs 2300 setup, will 1 3/4" headers be restrictive or will they work better considering my goals? I was really set on going turbo when I posted this latest thread, but I think I'm back to the 408/TVS setup. I think I will do the 408 first, then add the blower when I can. Thanks guys!!! Edited February 13, 2012 by slowfive0 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krambo Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I vote TVS but its your truck man good luck Btw Im pretty sure 750 rwhp will get you a 10.99 in perfect conditions, no wheel slip. There are some other threads on here about this Greg I agree here. The 408 / TVS 2300 combo hasn't been fully exploited IMHO. 750RWHP is about where the 10.99 ET threshold sits in our trucks with a well thought out combo (gearing / tires, converter, weight etc.) A well built 408 with 12lbs of boost from a TVS2300 should be able to hit those marks with exceptional street manners. I'll bet the launch will be insane with the torque numbers that combo can produce! Wow! A lot of great feedback---thanks guys! 1. How much are jackshaft tvs2300 blowers going for (good guy pricing)? Depends on what you are getting. Just the head unit / brackets I would expect $5500 on up. 2. Do they require a cog on the back and what does that add to the cost of the kit? The Jackshaft design comes with a carbon fiber (or fiberglass IIRC) jackshaft which includes the cog system on the back. Keep in mind that this system isn't a bolt on and play. There are some modifications to brackets, water pump, TB spacing, intake, valley cover etc. to consider. Talk to Ray (supersub) about his tweeks to the system before making a purchase! He has extensive knowledge in this area. 3. Is a 10rib setup needed or will an 8 rib setup suffice? These cost about $900-1100 iirc? Ideally you will need a 10 rib set-up if you are wanting to effectively push 12+ lbs of boost on a stroker with an OD crank pulley but you can get there with an 8rib set-up. Can get costly, expect another $1,500 - $2,000 in TOTAL pulley costs to run the boost level you are looking for. 4. 102mm tb is about $700 iirc? Not sure, haven't priced them lately. 5. With a 408/tvs 2300 setup, will 1 3/4" headers be restrictive or will they work better considering my goals? Personally, I feel you will need bigger primaries (maybe stepped) with 3" collectors minimum. The less restrictive the better in this blown 408 build. Forget about scavenging IMO. I was really set on going turbo when I posted this latest thread, but I think I'm back to the 408/TVS setup. I think I will do the 408 first, then add the blower when I can. Thanks guys!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Thanks Kevin. You know and bottom line, to run "a number" is nice and all, but it really comes down to enjoying driving it around. Since it is daily driven, it's hard to beat that torque that is there instantly when you call upon it!!!! In this good air, I know the truck runs better then 12.20's and if it drove like this in the summer I think I would be pretty happy. So a 408 and bigger blower should fit the bill quite nicely ;-) Any updates with your truck? I agree here. The 408 / TVS 2300 combo hasn't been fully exploited IMHO. 750RWHP is about where the 10.99 ET threshold sits in our trucks with a well thought out combo (gearing / tires, converter, weight etc.) A well built 408 with 12lbs of boost from a TVS2300 should be able to hit those marks with exceptional street manners. I'll bet the launch will be insane with the torque numbers that combo can produce! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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