SYRacing Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 I just got my 4x4 T56 swap completed and now I'm planning a nice NA build. Through research I've found that the 243 heads and TBSS intake are a nice combo with CR around 11:1, and basically my whole setup hinges on the cam selection. I don't care about aestetics like how choppy it is at idle, I just want it to make power. What kind of gains would I see by having AI or another porting company do a CNC job? Is it worth it for my goals? I could have just milled my 317s and run the .03x or .05x MLS gasket but I didn't want the top end taken apart for that long while the head work was being done. I'm thinking a head/cam swap can be easily done in a weekend with friends. I already have a set of 8.1 marine injectors also. From the cam thread: Year of truck: 2003 Model: SS Trans: T56, 3.07:1 1st Converter: N/A Gear: 4.10 Tires: 275/55/R20 List of current mods: 243 Heads, TBSS intake, Pacesetter LTs, no cats, 2.5 off of LTs meeting stock SS exhaust @ stock location, gutted stock air box, 4" PVC from TB to box Possible future mods: 50/75 nitrous, 4.88 gears, hydroboost Goals for truck: mid 12s Uses of the truck: Street/strip, cruise to work occasionally, no towing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evandostert Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 you have to pick gears first lower gears bigger cam. your pro not hitting a 12 with that set up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianVRss Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 everyone expects 12s out of these trucks N/A. maybe with those short gears 4.88 but your going to have to lose those 20s. btw going nitrous would make it no longer a N/A set up. your going to need a fat cam and a high stall. im sure shadowsniper will comment, hes the N/A king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowsniper3006 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I just got my 4x4 T56 swap completed and now I'm planning a nice NA build. Through research I've found that the 243 heads and TBSS intake are a nice combo with CR around 11:1, and basically my whole setup hinges on the cam selection. I don't care about aestetics like how choppy it is at idle, I just want it to make power. What kind of gains would I see by having AI or another porting company do a CNC job? Is it worth it for my goals? I could have just milled my 317s and run the .03x or .05x MLS gasket but I didn't want the top end taken apart for that long while the head work was being done. I'm thinking a head/cam swap can be easily done in a weekend with friends. I already have a set of 8.1 marine injectors also. From the cam thread: Year of truck: 2003 Model: SS Trans: T56, 3.07:1 1st Converter: N/A Gear: 4.10 Tires: 275/55/R20 List of current mods: 243 Heads, TBSS intake, Pacesetter LTs, no cats, 2.5 off of LTs meeting stock SS exhaust @ stock location, gutted stock air box, 4" PVC from TB to box Possible future mods: 50/75 nitrous, 4.88 gears, hydroboost Goals for truck: mid 12s Uses of the truck: Street/strip, cruise to work occasionally, no towing Your choice of trans is going to make this a very interesting truck, you can launch where any cam wants to...if you can drive it right and not stall on the line if the AWD dry hooks. My first impression of your attitude is...you want to go fast and will deal with the side effects? Are you sure about the first gear on the trans i can't find that gear listed. I found 3.01? http://t56transmission.com/general-t56-posts/t56-gear-ratios Your head choice and reason is pretty good, no one wants their truck to be down for 4 weeks while their stock heads get ported. The 243 heads are, as far as i know, the best factory casting to go with based on the chamber design. Even though our stock heads flow very close to them(or the same), the 243 heads are supposed to have a quench pad in the design and offer better compression. The info i have lists the 243 heads at 65 cc so with the stock gasket you would be around 10.87, not including ring height and bore clearance and gasket volume. To hit the 11.1 you said you would need to run the .041 cometic gasket, 11.15. And i would definitely go this route. As a matter of fact, after porting i would ask the heads to be checked at 64cc to get 11.29. Which leads into the head porting, YES. The way you listed the truck as street/strip and occasionally to work.....hell yes, get them things ported and flowing some good numbers. I'm using a trick flow head but the chamber is also a 65 and i run a .041 head gasket and i have no issues at all with 93 octane and pouring the advance to it. I wish i would have went 64 or 63cc. I always recommend TEA for head porting(they actually designed the trick flow 225 port, look up their address and trick flows address: Trick Flow Specialties 285 West Avenue Tallmadge, OH 44278 Total Engine Airflow 285 West Ave Tallmadge, OH 44278 The way your sounding, i would run a stage 3 port job on the heads and after porting have them checked to 64cc, if not 63cc. and still run the .041 head gasket. I strongly recommend having them done at TEA. Do you have 91 or 93 octane in your area? Would you consider E85? Your stock fuel pump is better then guys will tell you. With my set up(504 at the tires), i didn't see a pressure drop until around 7000 rpm(i shift at 7200 and dyno to 7300). E85 changes everything Depending on the cam, the 8.1 marine injectors can go pretty far for a NA motor. I use a 42 pound SVO injector that flows 52 at our pressure, and at 7000 rpm I'm at 78% injector duty cycle....at 144MPH(4.10 gear) The TBSS intake can't hurt, I have not dyno'd with one so i can't say the power output. I've seen the stock intake and tb pull 465 to the wheel...so the long runner tbss intake with a larger TB isn't going to hurt. I love the fact that you are running the stock SS exhaust pipes, as i am to. I assume you have a muffler welded in? 12's with a NA stock cubed truck is a hard goal to reach, but you seem to have the attitude for it, so based on that and the manual trans i would say a cam on the larger side isn't going to be to bad. Keep in mind i ran a 12 sec pass on a 224 cam with a 3800 stall, but i would love to see what a 228 or 230 cam would do with your trans and possible gear ratio(hell, I'd like to see my 235 cam with your gear ratios and long runner intake....but i don't think you need that much cam). I urge you to call around and see/learn what the professional world thinks about the cam you should run. You can call comp cams, EPS cams, ed curtis(requires you to buy the cam first), texas speed, speed inc, and a crap ton of other companies. You can also email patrick g and pay a small fee to have a cam spec'd based on your setup, probably a custom EPS cam. I had him spec 2 cams and they seemed very close to what zippy would say or, knowing what i know now....what i SHOULD have run in my truck. You can also call/text Zippy, my first choice(as well as for tuning), for a cam selection to meet your needs and work where you need it to. Or trust us forum guys. I don't use the hydroboost because I'm afraid the draw on the power steering pump might have a parasitic loss on the hp i have worked so hard to get. This is my small opinion, i can't prove or disprove it. A vette upgrade might work better for you, but cost a crap ton more. I'm very interested in how your trans will effect the truck, to the point of doing about a 1 and half hours of trying to compare your truck with the t56 gear ratios and a 4.88 gear and stock size tire, to my truck with a 65e and 4.56 gear and 28.7 tire. And it pisses me of that i can't find a calc to take the different final drive gear ratios and add the effect of the tire size in to them to see how we would compare. But, based on the 3.01 t56, here is the final drive gear ratios. T56 1st: 3.01x4.88=14.688 2nd: 2.07x4.88=10.101 3rd: 1.43x4.88=6.978 4th:1.0x4.88=4.88 Me with 4l65e and 4.56 gears 1st: 3.06X4.56=13.953 2nd: 1.63X4.56=7.432 3rd: 1.0x4.56=4.56 So IF you can launch and shift like a tuned auto(and I'm not saying you can), you should be able to pull me the whole way down the track based on final drive ratios. You didn't say anything about a short tire, so i assume the 4.88 gears are to make up for a stock sized 31.8 tire. If you add in you'll be running a 31.8 tire and I'm running a 28.7, i have no idea what happens because i can't find the calc i want. Here is some BS so don't quote this: If you take the final drive ratios and divide the tire size into them, it seems like the greater the number the more acceleration you would have, just like rear end gears. SO: T56,4.88 gear with 31.8 tire 1st: 3.01x4.88=14.688/31.8=.461 2nd: 2.07x4.88=10.101/31.8=.317 3rd: 1.43x4.88=6.978/31.8=.219 4th:1.0x4.88=4.88/31.8=.153 4l65,4.56 gear with 28.7 tire 1st: 3.06X4.56=13.953/28.7=.486 2nd: 1.63X4.56=7.432/28.7=.258 3rd: 1.0x4.56=4.56/28.7=.158 based on tire size...i might 60 foot better, but after that you should come past me depending on if you have to shift to 4th and how long that takes when i'm still pulling hard in third. i base this BS on this theory: If you used a short tire with your gear final drive ratio you would expect to accelerate more meaning a numerically higher number, so: 14.688/28.7=.511 if i used a taller tire you would expect to accelerate slower meaning a numerically lower number, so: 13.953/31.8=.438 it seems to be good for a comparison reference between how two different trans, gear and tire size trucks might compare to each other. I'm nervous posting this comparison because i based it on what made sense to me, so someone prove me wrong or provide the proper calc...which i guess would be proving me wrong...but we all learn so its worth it. Sorry to use my truck to compare to yours, but i'm in the 12's...and i had no idea how to compare your trans gears to our "normal" situation. Hope this makes some kind of sense and helps(and i hope the trans part isn't bs). Brad Edit(before i even posted this): I called Zippy to see what he had to say about comparing the t56 trans with a 4.88 gear and stock tire to my set up with 4l65 trans with a 4.56 gear and a 28.7 tire. He said to use a normal calc that figures in tire size at a set rpm to MPH and the one that produces the lower MPH will be the truck with numerically higher gear and therefore accelerate faster. So here is that: Both of these use the above final drive ratio and a set rpm of 7000 to compare You: 1st gear MPH =45 2nd gear MPH=66 3rd gear MPH=95 4th gear MPH=136 Me: 1st gear MPH=43 2nd gear MPH=80 3rd gear MPH=131 just as i figured i have the potential to out 60 foot you, but the set up your using has the potential to pull much harder then my truck going down the track. He also mentioned you may not want to go with a 4.88 gear because the ring gear diameter becomes so small and has so much more stress on it then it has a tendency to break more often. He also said he doesn't think they make a clutch that will hold up to the power you may make vs the AWD stress and the weight of the truck. And he said unless your a god at driving a manual, you won't 60 foot anywhere near a correctly stalled auto so you will essentially need more hp so you can trap a higher speed then a auto truck. And again, I'm posting a lot about the trans because it will be such a large point in how your truck performs and i want to make sure you have an idea of how it compares to the standard auto and what you may need to do to get it in the 12's with your build. Again i hope this helps, and i sure am pulling for you Edited October 17, 2012 by shadowsniper3006 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SYRacing Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Your choice of trans is going to make this a very interesting truck, you can launch where any cam wants to...if you can drive it right and not stall on the line if the AWD dry hooks. My first impression of your attitude is...you want to go fast and will deal with the side effects? Exactly...Already considering building a leaf sprung 9" and getting rid of the gov-bomb 10b Are you sure about the first gear on the trans i can't find that gear listed. I found 3.01? You are right, sorry about that. Typo. Your head choice and reason is pretty good, no one wants their truck to be down for 4 weeks while their stock heads get ported. The 243 heads are, as far as i know, the best factory casting to go with based on the chamber design. Even though our stock heads flow very close to them(or the same), the 243 heads are supposed to have a quench pad in the design and offer better compression. The info i have lists the 243 heads at 65 cc so with the stock gasket you would be around 10.87, not including ring height and bore clearance and gasket volume. To hit the 11.1 you said you would need to run the .041 cometic gasket, 11.15. And i would definitely go this route. As a matter of fact, after porting i would ask the heads to be checked at 64cc to get 11.29. That is the only thing I feel the 243s have going for them is the boost in compression. Flow #s aren't that impressive compared to the 317s. HOWEVER, I may have changed directions, after I talked to a buddy he told me to just buy the L92s he has. Already have the offset rockers and like 100 miles total on them. So then I would need a L92 intake from an escalade or something.. If I have to mill the 243s why not just mill the L92s and leave them unported? Probably have much more room to grow out of the L92s anyway. Bottom end is bone stock with 100K so at some point its going to need a set of forged pistons and arp goodies The way your sounding, i would run a stage 3 port job on the heads and after porting have them checked to 64cc, if not 63cc. and still run the .041 head gasket. I strongly recommend having them done at TEA. I live in Michigan so most likely I would use AI, support a local mitten business Do you have 91 or 93 octane in your area? Would you consider E85? Really like the idea of E85! Only 1 fuel station in town has it, and it's on the other side of town where I rarely go. I have 93 non-ethanol available as well. Your stock fuel pump is better then guys will tell you. With my set up(504 at the tires), i didn't see a pressure drop until around 7000 rpm(i shift at 7200 and dyno to 7300). E85 changes everything I agree, I was going to go boosted couple years back so I bought a gigantic Supra fuel pump, could use that as well. Depending on the cam, the 8.1 marine injectors can go pretty far for a NA motor. I use a 42 pound SVO injector that flows 52 at our pressure, and at 7000 rpm I'm at 78% injector duty cycle....at 144MPH(4.10 gear) The TBSS intake can't hurt, I have not dyno'd with one so i can't say the power output. I've seen the stock intake and tb pull 465 to the wheel...so the long runner tbss intake with a larger TB isn't going to hurt. I love the fact that you are running the stock SS exhaust pipes, as i am to. I assume you have a muffler welded in? Stock muffler, bought some 2.5" U-Bends from Summit and some adapters, 3" OD to 2.5 OD for the collectors, 2.5 OD to 2.75 ID to slip over the stock pipes running to the muffler. Got some 3" band clamps for the collectors and 2.75" lap band clamps for the rear pieces. Cut the U-Bends to get my required bends and welded it up. Passanger side didn't need anything. Turned out really slick, just cut the stock down pipes off where the stock DPs went and slipped them on. The bolts on the big 2 bolt flange portion sheared, and the factory band clamp nut/bolt was so rusted it wouldn't budge. Saw zall took care of that. 12's with a NA stock cubed truck is a hard goal to reach, but you seem to have the attitude for it, so based on that and the manual trans i would say a cam on the larger side isn't going to be to bad. Keep in mind i ran a 12 sec pass on a 224 cam with a 3800 stall, but i would love to see what a 228 or 230 cam would do with your trans and possible gear ratio(hell, I'd like to see my 235 cam with your gear ratios and long runner intake....but i don't think you need that much cam). I urge you to call around and see/learn what the professional world thinks about the cam you should run. You can call comp cams, EPS cams, ed curtis(requires you to buy the cam first), texas speed, speed inc, and a crap ton of other companies. You can also email patrick g and pay a small fee to have a cam spec'd based on your setup, probably a custom EPS cam. I had him spec 2 cams and they seemed very close to what zippy would say or, knowing what i know now....what i SHOULD have run in my truck. You can also call/text Zippy, my first choice(as well as for tuning), for a cam selection to meet your needs and work where you need it to. Or trust us forum guys. Thanks for the advice the guys on Tech really like Pat G, he seems to be the king of these hybrid builds. I don't use the hydroboost because I'm afraid the draw on the power steering pump might have a parasitic loss on the hp i have worked so hard to get. This is my small opinion, i can't prove or disprove it. A vette upgrade might work better for you, but cost a crap ton more. The hydroboost system is bypassing when you aren't pressing the brakes, it's flowing through the HB and back to the PS ressy. When you apply the brakes the PS pump under a load and when you would see some real world losses IMO. I'm very interested in how your trans will effect the truck, to the point of doing about a 1 and half hours of trying to compare your truck with the t56 gear ratios and a 4.88 gear and stock size tire, to my truck with a 65e and 4.56 gear and 28.7 tire. And it pisses me of that i can't find a calc to take the different final drive gear ratios and add the effect of the tire size in to them to see how we would compare. LOL I was thinking the .57:1 6th was more appealing than my potential 60ft times So IF you can launch and shift like a tuned auto(and I'm not saying you can), you should be able to pull me the whole way down the track based on final drive ratios. You didn't say anything about a short tire, so i assume the 4.88 gears are to make up for a stock sized 31.8 tire. If you add in you'll be running a 31.8 tire and I'm running a 28.7, i have no idea what happens because i can't find the calc i want. 4.88s would also help make 6th a more usable gear, 6th @ 65 is like 1300rpm Sorry to use my truck to compare to yours, but i'm in the 12's...and i had no idea how to compare your trans gears to our "normal" situation. Hope this makes some kind of sense and helps(and i hope the trans part isn't bs). It does help and thats the exact reason I posted!!! Brad Edit(before i even posted this): I called Zippy to see what he had to say about comparing the t56 trans with a 4.88 gear and stock tire to my set up with 4l65 trans with a 4.56 gear and a 28.7 tire. He said to use a normal calc that figures in tire size at a set rpm to MPH and the one that produces the lower MPH will be the truck with numerically higher gear and therefore accelerate faster. So here is that: Both of these use the above final drive ratio and a set rpm of 7000 to compare You: 1st gear MPH =45 2nd gear MPH=66 3rd gear MPH=95 4th gear MPH=136 Me: 1st gear MPH=43 2nd gear MPH=80 3rd gear MPH=131 just as i figured i have the potential to out 60 foot you, but the set up your using has the potential to pull much harder then my truck going down the track. He also mentioned you may not want to go with a 4.88 gear because the ring gear diameter becomes so small and has so much more stress on it then it has a tendency to break more often. I don't know about the 8.25 front.........But since the 149 doesn't supply 100% to it, maybe it will survive? 10B and gov-bomb have got to go He also said he doesn't think they make a clutch that will hold up to the power you may make vs the AWD stress and the weight of the truck. I got the mcleod twin rated for 800hp, don't know how long it will last but Spec sells a 1500hp rated but says its not too street friendly. It's crazy with these clutches, they make a 12" single but no 12" dual discs? These DDs for LS stuff are tiny. I just put a big DD in my tow rig cummins, absolutely love it. Rated for 650hp/1300tq. It's a chattery sombitch though but doesnt slip. And he said unless your a god at driving a manual, you won't 60 foot anywhere near a correctly stalled auto so you will essentially need more hp so you can trap a higher speed then a auto truck. I can definately hold my own but it's so odd with this T56, it's a car trans so the gears are extremely close together. I'm used to banging an NV4500 and this just doesn't compare! And again, I'm posting a lot about the trans because it will be such a large point in how your truck performs and i want to make sure you have an idea of how it compares to the standard auto and what you may need to do to get it in the 12's with your build. Thanks I'm really curious too Again i hope this helps, and i sure am pulling for you Thanks again I'll have to get some video footage of rowing thru the gears in the SSS!! It really wakes the LQ9 up! Can't say it helped fuel mileage, I find myself ripping around in a gear too low too often haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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