TurbochargedBerserker Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 (edited) Long story short: I paid about $2500 for a set of "race" heads. I took 'em to my local guru this week and dropped them off for a thorough inspection. He called and said the bowls didn't look very race ready. I called the shop that I bought the heads from (another thing: When I bought them, they were "our race heads" etc on the website and when I spoke with them. However the boxes both say ET performance ) they actually said "We don't believe in hand polishing the bowls. Since I hadn't looked very closely at the bowls, I let it go at that. I was going over the heads with my local engine guru today, and the bowls are just nasty... The bowls are extremely rough. I mean like textured concrete. One of the heads has "cleanup" written on the deck in blue sharpie This is definitely not what I was expecting from a set of race heads. The guru (who drag races professionally in addition to having a local race shop) says leaving the heads the way they are will be leaving 5-8% (so 40-65hp) on the bench. He talked to the machine shop that will be doing my block work, and they said the valves would need grinding work and cnc'ing the bowls would run $800-$1000. They also said for $2500, I could have used my stock heads and had them truly race ported. I'm a bit disgusted with the quality. The bowls are still in rough casting, except where the cnc machine overlapped a bit doing the valve openings. I measured the valves, and they are the correct size, but since I ordered a custom bowl size and these are rough castings, I am pretty sure they are the stock dimensions. Needless to say, I am thinking of returning these. I need some input. Am I being unrealistic by expecting $2500 race heads to have cnc'd and matched bowls rather than rough castings? Edited December 11, 2004 by TurbochargedBerserker (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
styleandspeed Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Return those. For 2500 you should have gotten some damn good AFR's or the best port job on your stockers that you could find. Unless those do happen to be unported AFR's and that is what you were expecting to get. Then you are probably about right where the $$ that you spent would give you. Are they GM castings or other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted December 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 (edited) They are probably GM castings. I forgot to check today They are not AFRs. The were supposedly APE 6.0 Race heads, but came in ET Performance boxes... AFRs are all cnc'd in the chambers. Even the "street" (stage 1) version. These heads are supposedly comparable to AFR 225s (2.08/1.60 high flow). I checked the ET performance sight, and their pictures all show cnc'd chambers. Their specs list chamber and valve blending for stage 1 heads... I just heard back from the engine guru. He dropped by two other local shops that cnc race heads. In his words, the owners of both shops are 'probably still rolling their eyes.' Edited December 11, 2004 by TurbochargedBerserker (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XGMTech Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 That's . From that photo, those heads look pretty much stock... if those combustion chambers have the texture of rough concrete like you say, it sounds like that's the cast finish and there's no porting done in there at all. What is the name of that company so we know who NOT to deal with in the future? They sound like ripoff artists... Hope your return goes smoothly! Best of luck on that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 I need some input. Am I being unrealistic by expecting $2500 race heads to have cnc'd and matched bowls rather than rough castings? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The pics you posted show a combustion chamber with the valves in, there is no way to SEE the bowls? Are you confusing the bowl area with the combustion chamber? 2.08/1.60 sounds like a decent valve size for a small block, did the builder give you any flow numbers for the intake/exhaust ports? What will your engine combo be, cubic inches, bore, stroke, cam, compression etc...? Is the engine for a car, or a truck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted December 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 I need some input. Am I being unrealistic by expecting $2500 race heads to have cnc'd and matched bowls rather than rough castings? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The pics you posted show a combustion chamber with the valves in, there is no way to SEE the bowls? Are you confusing the bowl area with the combustion chamber? 2.08/1.60 sounds like a decent valve size for a small block, did the builder give you any flow numbers for the intake/exhaust ports? What will your engine combo be, cubic inches, bore, stroke, cam, compression etc...? Is the engine for a car, or a truck? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My engine guy calls the chambers "bowls" or chambers. It seems to have worn off on me The chambers are the issue. Specs: # 2.080 / 1.600 Stainless steel valves # Comp Cams 978 Hyd Roller Valve Springs # Bronze valve guides # Comp Cams Tiantium Retainers # 235cc Intake Runner / 90 cc Exhaust Runner Flowed on a 4.125" bore @ 28" w/ radius inlet Exhaust was flowed w/tube LIFT / INTAKE CFM EXHAUST CFM .100" / 74.7 62.6 .200" / 153.2 114.7 .300" / 216.6 163.0 .400" / 264.6 207.4 .500" / 309.6 242.6 ..600" / 327.4 261.6 .700" / 328.5 272.1 .800" / 329.1 273.4 These are for a turbo 408 in my truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 That's . From that photo, those heads look pretty much stock... if those combustion chambers have the texture of rough concrete like you say, it sounds like that's the cast finish and there's no porting done in there at all. What is the name of that company so we know who NOT to deal with in the future? They sound like ripoff artists... Hope your return goes smoothly! Best of luck on that... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The combustion chambers are usually polished to take away hot spot formations, but the combustion chamber is NEVER "ported"..? The combustion chambers of "race heads" would usually show some sign of material removal on several of the chambers to acheive the same CCs. On a TRUE "race head" the chamber would be polished I would think? The true test of the heads would be in the actual runners and the valve bowl. Heads that are ported/polished with deshrouded valve bowls are nice, but they are STREET heads, not "race" heads...? What's the application? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenKey Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Did they come with flow bench numbers. I would be more concerned with the numbers, vs what they looked like. The numbers don't lie. Look on the head deck on one end or the other and look for a casting number. Our stock head is a 317 casting. That is okay though. Most head shops re-work the stock head. Mine are. Mine don't exactly look that way, although not far off - my combustion chambers, anyway. Mine took a lot of porting though to get to 77cc, so a little different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 My engine guy calls the chambers "bowls" or chambers. It seems to have worn off on me The chambers are the issue. Specs: # 2.080 / 1.600 Stainless steel valves # Comp Cams 978 Hyd Roller Valve Springs # Bronze valve guides # Comp Cams Tiantium Retainers # 235cc Intake Runner / 90 cc Exhaust Runner Flowed on a 4.125" bore @ 28" w/ radius inlet Exhaust was flowed w/tube LIFT / INTAKE CFM EXHAUST CFM .100" / 74.7 62.6 .200" / 153.2 114.7 .300" / 216.6 163.0 .400" / 264.6 207.4 .500" / 309.6 242.6 ..600" / 327.4 261.6 .700" / 328.5 272.1 .800" / 329.1 273.4 These are for a turbo 408 in my truck. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The runner sizes look big and the numbers look good. A "chamber" and a "bowl" are two different things... the bowl area is under the valve head, it not only has a texture and size, but the SHAPE is also important. Novice bowl porting and professional bowl porting often end up as two different things. A combustion chamber can be polished, or sometimes is reshaped to unshroud the valve, or to equalize chamber volumes. A "race" head usually has polished chambers so hot spots have a harder time forming. The sharp edges of the surface of the head where the plane of the head meets the chamber is also contoured (rounded) for the same reason. I would get more information on what it was the shop was supposed to do for the quoted amount versus what was actually done before becoming confrontational with them, because it might be "burning a bridge" so to speak if they are to do any further work or upgrades on the head. Are these purchased "out of the box" heads, or custom pieces? Can they be returned, or modified to suit your needs? It's best to try to stay friendly even if it is difficult in many instances..? Flow bench numbers have factors that need to be factored in before raw numbers of different flow benches are compared "number vs number" also, but your heads seem to have decent flow numbers as far as I can see. What cam are you running/thinking of running? Static compression ratio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTex Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Return them. If you paid $1500, then.... your choice. $2500 is too much. I posted a pic of my TEA heads on the Tech thread. APE is a sponsor there, so I didn't want to say anything. I'd do AFRs for that money if anything just to get the thicker head deck. Thats better forsealing up head gaskets in boosted / high hp applications. If not AFR, then I'd go back to TEA. Then again, TEA can take a set of AFR castings to their stage 3 port for big numbers. Flow numbers look good, but are they correct? I can't believe they didn't do any chamber work. With installing the new 2.08 intake valve, there needs to be at least some unshrouding and blending work. Good luck. Return them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 from what i'm seeing there and your info, someone would be walking funny with a cylinder head shoved up their a$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDGM Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 I had a head porting shop and have done 100's of sets of chevy heads. Never, ever would a full race-prepped set of heads not include CCing and chamber polishing. I used to include it on street heads, though not as percise. The polishing keeps carbon from sticking even in a street head. It makes me wonder what the bowls really do look like under the valves. They did do a decent chamber blend of the 3 or 5 angle valve seat. CNC ported heads are fine, but the tedious hand work must still be done to maximize the flow potential. Butch 02 Sierra Denali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellbents10 Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 (edited) I would like to see the actual bowls myself. As the flow bench numbers look pretty solid from 500 and up. the runners are pretty big but the numbers seem to be good for the size. Not every one polishes the combustion chamber. If they were ported with forced induction in mind you would think that they would have polished the combustion chambers. Drop some valves out of those haeds and have them flowed maybe. You might still have a very nice set of heads. I would polish the chambers and CC them so you know were you are at. More pics. Edited December 12, 2004 by hellbents10 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEAR M UP Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 (edited) Erik, here are some pictures of my heads.. Mine are not the most expensive you can get, but they are hand finished and are working well.... My flow #'s are under about 3-4% Ben does have a good point, if that is what they flow sheet says thats what they could be..... Edited December 12, 2004 by GEAR M UP (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Erik, here are some pictures of my heads.. Mine are not the most expensive you can get, but they are hand finished and are working well.... My flow #'s are under about 3-4% Ben does have a good point, if that is what they flow sheet says thats what they could be..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do you have any pictures of your heads with the valves removed for a picture of the bowl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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