Dylan06SS Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 For myself I am partial to Sony, I believe they are superior to all other TV’s as well as many other products like blue-ray. I have seen tests run that demonstrate all brands of TVs compared to Sony and Sony wins hands down every time. Just because HD-DVD was the first to market does not mean they will win out in the end. Sony’s Blue-Ray player also will play and DVD just like the HD-DVD. And it will also up-convert slandered DVD’s to HDMI. One thing that Blue-Ray does have on there side is that there is more movie companies backing them then HD-DVD. And I feel that will play a major roll in who wins. Also It does help that the play station uses blue-ray. As for cables it is true that some are made better then others, monster being one of those. I will not disagree with that. But when you are talking HDMI cables, I’m not sold yet on spending $100-$200 on a cable yet. I have not been able to tell any difference between a Sony HDMI cable to a Monster HDMI. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not gonna get on my anti-sony soap box... if you like em thats all that matters in the end. I am aware that the MAJORITY of BR players will play DVDs, but its not written into the software standards like it is with HD DVD... All HD DVD players, regaurdless of who makes them, must play DVD... BR does not require this. Obviously the good manufactures will build this in, but I've already seen the demo peices from some of these "crap" brands jumping on the BR bandwagon and they don't... and as you and I know the vast majority of people out there will buy these POS players and be disappointed when they don't play DVD... this relfects badly on the BR brand as a whole b/c so many people are uneducated consumers. Like I said before, I'm no expert, they're both excellent formats... only time will tell which one will win out. At my office we've pretty much decided to hold off on pushing either until things settle out. The cable thing... you're right... most people don't notice a difference, but when you're looking at high end systems all day like we are the benefits become very obvious. Of course no one should spend $1000 on a silver strand HDMI cable (yes I do have those) when their TV only cost $2000.... but for someone who spends $10g on a high end plasma or $50k on a theater projector then the cables should match the performace level of the product... thats all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 Hmmmm anyone else remember what happened the last time Sony tried to fight a media war (BETAMax vs. VHS)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j4nash Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 I agree you Dylan that if someone spends $10g on a high end plasma or $50k on a theater projector then the cables should match the performace level of the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSThunder Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 Nah, the Premium PS3 is $599 and the 'bare bones' one is $499. I will stick with the Xbox 360 and the add-on HD-DVD player. I am betting HD-DVD is the standard in the near future.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I read the same thing on the web. I just can't remember the site. I think it was a news article on excite.com but not for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chpspecial Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 anybody remember lazer disc's. What ever happend to those, they where pimp back in the day. To bad they didn't catch on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.justin. Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 anybody remember lazer disc's. What ever happend to those, they where pimp back in the day. To bad they didn't catch on. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They were the LP of optical media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 anybody remember lazer disc's. What ever happend to those, they where pimp back in the day. To bad they didn't catch on. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They were the LP of optical media. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> probably the best description of a laser disc I've ever heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkt71 Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 (edited) I agree you Dylan that if someone spends $10g on a high end plasma or $50k on a theater projector then the cables should match the performace level of the product. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Lets think about this. The manufacturers of these 'high end cables' sell these because they know people who spend the 10's of thousands of dollars on their high end home theatres dont know any better... they just think more expensive is better when it comes to cables. Of course they will buy them... and guys like Dylan (lol, no offense man) will sell them because they know the customer will pay for them. In the world of digital broadband and home entertainment, and as we transition to full digital outputs (ie HDMI, DVI, optical sound) there becomes less reason to buy 'high strand count' and 'titanium kryptonite gold encrusted cable' for a shitload of money. These cables carry a digital signal... 1's and 0's if you may.... all the end receiver, being a Dolby Digital/DTS or whatever receiver needs to see are all of those 1's and 0's. Its either you get a picture, or you dont. The basic HDMI cable can carry all the data (1's and 0's) just fine... if they dont, it means the cable is too long and thats when you need to get a slightly better built cable... for long digital cable runs. Or else you need a digital repeater, but thats another subject... Thats like saying you need a super deluxe optical cable for surround sound... negative again. Optical carries LIGHT... that light carries 1's and 0's.... either the reciever gets them all, or you dont hear shit. As long as you can hear something, then the cable is working fine.. all data is being transmitted. Just like an HDMI cable. Next time you go out to Best Buy and the pimply faced tech guy is trying to upsell you to a better digital HDMI and/or optical cable, tell him to lick your balls and piss off But when it comes to component cables... they are analog... YES quality does count.. and so does a 'higher strand count' because the picture is coming over analog electrical current.... interference causes picture distortion and may other problems... Edited September 28, 2006 by punkt71 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxySS Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 Nah, the Premium PS3 is $599 and the 'bare bones' one is $499. I will stick with the Xbox 360 and the add-on HD-DVD player. I am betting HD-DVD is the standard in the near future.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, I saw that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 (edited) I agree you Dylan that if someone spends $10g on a high end plasma or $50k on a theater projector then the cables should match the performace level of the product. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Lets think about this. The manufacturers of these 'high end cables' sell these because they know people who spend the 10's of thousands of dollars on their high end home theatres dont know any better... they just think more expensive is better when it comes to cables. Of course they will buy them... and guys like Dylan (lol, no offense man) will sell them because they know the customer will pay for them. In the world of digital broadband and home entertainment, and as we transition to full digital outputs (ie HDMI, DVI, optical sound) there becomes less reason to buy 'high strand count' and 'titanium kryptonite gold encrusted cable' for a shitload of money. These cables carry a digital signal... 1's and 0's if you may.... all the end receiver, being a Dolby Digital/DTS or whatever receiver needs to see are all of those 1's and 0's. Its either you get a picture, or you dont. The basic HDMI cable can carry all the data (1's and 0's) just fine... if they dont, it means the cable is too long and thats when you need to get a slightly better built cable... for long digital cable runs. Or else you need a digital repeater, but thats another subject... Thats like saying you need a super deluxe optical cable for surround sound... negative again. Optical carries LIGHT... that light carries 1's and 0's.... either the reciever gets them all, or you dont hear shit. As long as you can hear something, then the cable is working fine.. all data is being transmitted. Just like an HDMI cable. Next time you go out to Best Buy and the pimply faced tech guy is trying to upsell you to a better digital HDMI and/or optical cable, tell him to lick your balls and piss off But when it comes to component cables... they are analog... YES quality does count.. and so does a 'higher strand count' because the picture is coming over analog electrical current.... interference causes picture distortion and may other problems... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WOW... ok... I'll keep that in mind. You need a job? Obviously you know more about this than me and the rest of the high end custom industry for that matter. [/sarcasm] No offense man... but thats not accurate info. Just one of many examples where cable grades differ: Why is a silver-plated digital interconnect better than a copper plated piece?Since silver is a lower resistance metal than copper, a signal is capable of traveling further. Also, frequencies such as High Definition tend to flow closer to the surface. Since silver has a 10% gain in conductance, the data transfer is superior to that of copper. If what you were stating was accurate large network installs wouldn't rely on fiber optics rather than twisted pairs... for that matter people wouldn't choose cat6 over cat5... resistance, conductance, and a host of other things play into the world of HIGH END audio and video. For some POS system, yeah... use the cheapest cables you can find... for better componets use better interconnects. In these higher end systems the bandwidth necessary for remote access, distribution, and control necessitates the use of better cables... if corners are cut on the cable/wire level performance begins to suffer. Yes... with the advent of digital (HDMI DVI ETC) the gap between the best and worst as closed signifigantly, but we're still not at 100% digitial on everything (yet) and there is still better performance to be squeezed out of quality materials and construction VS some mass produced POS cable from china that came in the box w/ your components. Edited September 28, 2006 by Dylan06SS (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkt71 Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 (edited) WOW... ok... I'll keep that in mind. You need a job? Obviously you know more about this than me and the rest of the high end custom industry for that matter. [/sarcasm] No offense man... but thats not accurate info. Just one of many examples where cable grades differ: A job? Thanks for the offer though man But considering I have been in the IT industry for almost 9 years (Cisco CCNP, Microsoft MCSE, N+) and will have a masters in Information Technology next year, I dont think a/v installs will pay the bills If what you were stating was accurate large network installs wouldn't rely on fiber optics rather than twisted pairs... for that matter people wouldn't choose cat6 of cat5... resistance, conductance, and a host of other things play into the world of HIGH END audio and video. For some POS system, yeah... use the cheapest cables you can find... for better componets use better interconnects. In these higher end systems the bandwidth necessary for remote access, distriburion, and control necessitates the use of better cables... if corners are cut on the cable/wire level performance begins to suffer. Yes... with the advent of digital (HDMI DVI ETC) the gap between the best and worst as closed signifigantly, but we're still not at 100% digitial on everything (yet) and there is still better performance to be squeezed out of quality materials and construction VS some mass produced POS cable from china that came in the box w/ your components. Dylan, I know you work in the 'high end' a/v industry, but you sound more like a salesman than a technical engineer... I am confused? Let me correct you here. 1) 'Accurate' network installs rely on fiber optics because of the LENGTH of the run and the bandwidth needed. You cannot connect several offices/backbones together with twisted pair cable, as twisted pair only is reliable at around 325meters of cable, and thats with a high probability of signal degradation and attenuation, resulting in retransmitted data packets and frame/CRC errors. You go fiber because you can run fiber optics with no problems, and run 10Gb with no problem for miles. 2) People choose CAT6 over CAT5e for a couple of reasons. Length of the run, and to prevent signal loss when running the cable over 250meters. The difference between Cat5e and Cat6 is there is a plastic 'divider' inside Cat6 that separates the 4 twisted pairs from cross-talk, and allows a higher bandwidth (1Gb over copper) with less signal degradation. Once again, this is because we are talking 'analog' data transfer, not digital. A network packet sent over Cat5/6 cable is much different than a packet of information sent over a digital HDMI cable. Comparing network telecommunications cable vs. home theatre wiring/cabling is like comparing apples to oranges, although technologies are similar, they are for different usages. 3) As far as HDMI cables go, in a home theatre setup (yes even HIGH END systems) there will be NO visible difference with a 'silver strand' HDMI cable vs. a Monoprice HDMI cable vs a Monster cable. With HDMI (or DVI for that matter) either you have a picture or you dont. Simple. The data gets there or it doesnt. The build quality comes down to how FAR that signal can travel from the source, to the receiver. The longer the cable, the higher quality the material needs to be for the electrical current to carry the signal (which in HDMI and optical, are data packets). If the cable material is crap, then the signal is weak, and all data packets will not make it from point A -> point B and you will not get a picture. But if you see a picture, then you see a picture. An HDMI cable is not affected the same way a component cable is by quality. A picture over component cable can vary differently through different material... thats when quality counts. Now I do see that some DVI cables can have a bad picture when ran at longer lengths (past 30ft) when running higher resolutions... as in a projector setup ran from a PC over 30ft to a projector. Thats when you would need a repeater. From a salesman perspective, sure... more expensive HDMI/optical cables are the way to go.. From a technical standpoint... if you get a picture with your current HDMI cable then your not going to benefit from the $200+ cables. I could get into more detail here... but I would rather describe this in layman's form on here.. this isnt AVSForum.com .... Edited September 28, 2006 by punkt71 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 (edited) A job? Thanks for the offer though man But considering I have been in the IT industry for almost 9 years (Cisco CCNP, Microsoft MCSE, N+) and will have a masters in Information Technology next year, I dont think a/v installs will pay the bills Dylan, I know you work in the 'high end' a/v industry, but you sound more like a salesman than a technical engineer... I am confused? Let me correct you here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't get it confused... AV is only a small portion of what we do here and I won't even get into the job lists and clients, but as far as credentials I may work in sales now, but I am (on the infotech side) Cisco Panduit, CSC optics, (blah blah blah) certified so no need to continue to try and impress me. Before I became sales VP I was the lead project engineer here... Our commercial division works with integration of not only AV, but also IT, and single point interface development. I can say 100% from experience the quality of materials effects quality of product which in turn effects the quality of performance. If Yahoo's Corporate offices in Burbank & Santa Monica rely on us for infrastructure cabling I'm sure there might be a bit of truth to what I'm saying... I'm not talking out of my ass as you seem to think I am. ;) Anyways... like you said this isn't an AV fourm so why bother getting into it here... I've got better things to do than get into an internet pissing match over the cost of AV interconnect cables. Lets agree to disagree and we'll move on. Edited September 28, 2006 by Dylan06SS (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 ... If what you were stating was accurate large network installs wouldn't rely on fiber optics rather than twisted pairs...Not exactly; you're both right. I regularly use the shittiest Cat5 I can find to send 100mb full-duplex data 750-ft between repeating hubs; the reason it works is because ethernet uses balanced line drivers for noise rejection/cancellation; if you have balanced line drivers between your source component and consuming component then yes you can run your digital cable hundreds of feet and alonside unshielded power cables and the components themselves will reject the noise. But even though these are high-dollar digital devices I doubt that these players or monitors are made with balanced line drivers, so the signal cable is still succeptible to picking up line noise. All that said, you won't find me paying several grand for a cable. Think of it this way - an automobile is the most hostile signal path environment possible, and if those high-end guys can achieve an inaudible noise floor there using off the shelf cabling so can a high-end home installer. Mr. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkt71 Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 Well considering Yahoo relies on SBC for their fibre to be ran between the Irvine Data Center and their other data center's, and usually the infrastructure cabling is done by the Yahoo engineer's... like myself when I worked on all of the Cisco and VoIP infrastructure planning and implementation 2 years ago at the SBC data center for Yahoo.. We can agree to disagree, but the main point I was trying to make before the subject was changed to networking and telecommunications was that the 'high end' cable industry is a SCAM and is overpriced. Monster cable needs to go out of business (which they wont, too many uninformed morons buying their stuff). The show 'Mythbusters' needs to do a test on these cables to show the public that these overpriced cables are a ripoff... People would be better off spending their money on chaper cables and properly calibrating their pictures with AVIA or Digital essentials... No need to argue about it... I mean, we are talking about friggen cables here, not religion or politics.... LOL. Its just I am into high end audio/video and am a Network engineer... so I am always up for a good argument... hahah. SOOO back to Blu-ray vs. HD DVD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 Well considering Yahoo relies on SBC for their fibre to be ran between the Irvine Data Center and their other data center's, and usually the infrastructure cabling is done by the Yahoo engineer's... like myself when I worked on all of the Cisco and VoIP infrastructure planning and implementation 2 years ago at the SBC data center for Yahoo.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I must be imagining things then? Cuz I could've sworn we spent the better part of the last 3 months pulling all manner of line thru their locations at 3333 Empire in Burbank and 2450 Broadway in Santa Monica. Everything in those buildings was a subcontracted ordeal... not much involvement from any of Yahoos engineers, but then again these weren't data centers, these were the business offices. We can agree to disagree, but the main point I was trying to make before the subject was changed to networking and telecommunications was that the 'high end' cable industry is a SCAM and is overpriced. Monster cable needs to go out of business (which they wont, too many uninformed morons buying their stuff). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> One thing in that I do agree with... MONSTER is a scam... their cables are nothing more than rebranded standard cables. People pay for the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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