Well the tranny's out again -

[zippy]

Wow, i only read the first couple of posts so far because there is alot there to read. I will tell you that that specific trans guy was aware of the issue before your trans was built if I had to guess. The first time I ran into that problem I ended up using that person's trans jack to fix it since I was 10 hours from home. At the first SSS event Matt Walls broke the input drum in the same fashion as yours while spraying nitrous on the shift into 3rd. The second time I'd ran into this was with Michael Baladi's truck once again on the shift into third (also while wide open). His broke at the same power level that he ran a 12.84 in.

 

 

Added:

 

 

quick list of those I know that had this problem (not all high dollar transmissions though)

 

Mister P

Infinus

SS Minneapolis

MWalls54

Edited February 20, 2007 by zippy (see edit history)

[misterp]

Wow, i only read the first couple of posts so far because there is alot there to read. I will tell you that that specific trans guy was aware of the issue before your trans was built if I had to guess. The first time I ran into that problem I ended up using that person's trans jack to fix it since I was 10 hours from home. At the first SSS event Matt Walls broke the input drum in the same fashion as yours while spraying nitrous on the shift into 3rd. The second time I'd ran into this was with Michael Baladi's truck once again on the shift into third (also while wide open). His broke at the same power level that he ran a 12.84 in.

 

 

Added:

 

 

quick list of those I know that had this problem (not all high dollar transmissions though)

 

Mister P

Infinus

SS Minneapolis

MWalls54

Thanks for weighing in, good to hear from you. The mutual friend helping me now took his Sunday to educate me quite a bit on 4L60E basics, I feel much more in-the-know now and am confident I'll have all the angles covered except a billet output shaft; from what I can see that and a titanium input drum are the only upgrades I haven't bought!!!

 

re the former tranny builder, thanks for telling me that - he left the job half done. And "a job half-done is not a job done" as my father is fond of saying.

 

Mr. P.

[PladdPezzPunk]

How did the pistons look. i've seen this hapen when the piston has a torn/blown through seal. it winds up trying to catch 2nd and 3rd at the same time, the adverse force of the sun gears makes the bang and cracks the drum. If you don't imidiatly shut down, even 30 seconds of running in gear will usually burn everything up cause it super heats the clutches. just my experience. maybe i'm way out of line here, but i've seen that as the course of events, not the drum breaking first. please let me know as i would like to know the true root cause. mainly for improvement reasons.

[misterp]

How did the pistons look. i've seen this hapen when the piston has a torn/blown through seal. it winds up trying to catch 2nd and 3rd at the same time, the adverse force of the sun gears makes the bang and cracks the drum. If you don't imidiatly shut down, even 30 seconds of running in gear will usually burn everything up cause it super heats the clutches. just my experience. maybe i'm way out of line here, but i've seen that as the course of events, not the drum breaking first. please let me know as i would like to know the true root cause. mainly for improvement reasons.

I understand what you are pointing out - the pistons still had the seals on them and I'm no expert but the man who is looked them over very carefully and said they looked good. I'll ask again though to be thorough.

[PladdPezzPunk]

i'll be honest, i havn't seen it happen on a 4l60 but i've seen it on the 700r4 alot of ford tranny's that are notorious for failure. just a thought i had. also the z pak's, i have found that usually the failure is from improper clearance of them. there is no way to know after their destroyed, but they are a real PITA to set up properly. usually results is getting thicker pressure plates or steels to take up extra clearance. they never seem to wind up perfect if they just get slapped in a stock clearance is measured. Just IMO from experence. (I'll be the first to tell you i've done it and not realized it times ago but admitting lack of knoledge is a step toward perfection) I also need to once again rip my tranny. i had the front sprag explode on mine. great fun. I can't find anything out there better than the borg warner sprags (which i used the first time). Just a freak part to break but power has a price. some time i will actually get to stop working on everyone elses cars and get mine straightened out. I can't complain though. curious to hear what the outcome is mister P. hope it works out for the best.

Edited February 21, 2007 by PladdPezzPunk (see edit history)

[misterp]

i'll be honest, i havn't seen it happen on a 4l60 but i've seen it on the 700r4 alot of ford tranny's that are notorious for failure. just a thought i had. also the z pak's, i have found that usually the failure is from improper clearance of them. there is no way to know after their destroyed, but they are a real PITA to set up properly. usually results is getting thicker pressure plates or steels to take up extra clearance. they never seem to wind up perfect if they just get slapped in a stock clearance is measured. Just IMO from experence. (I'll be the first to tell you i've done it and not realized it times ago but admitting lack of knoledge is a step toward perfection) I also need to once again rip my tranny. i had the front sprag explode on mine. great fun. I can't find anything out there better than the borg warner sprags (which i used the first time). Just a freak part to break but power has a price. some time i will actually get to stop working on everyone elses cars and get mine straightened out. I can't complain though. curious to hear what the outcome is mister P. hope it works out for the best.

Z-Packs have fallen out of favor, a lot of suppliers are not carrying them any more; I bought a set of Alto Red Eagle clutches and extreme duty Torque Drive input drum & billet input shaft. Received more help from a friend, the plan is to have everything back in the truck Saturday.

 

Mr. P.

[eamonnschevy]

Sorry to hear you trans misfortune.. hope you get it all repaired quickly and get back on the road buddy..

all the best

eamonn

[Krambo]

Z-Packs have fallen out of favor, a lot of suppliers are not carrying them any more; I bought a set of Alto Red Eagle clutches and extreme duty Torque Drive input drum & billet input shaft. Received more help from a friend, the plan is to have everything back in the truck Saturday.

 

Mr. P.

 

 

Billet input shaft,...where did you pick that puppy up at? Cost?

[misterp]

Billet input shaft,...where did you pick that puppy up at? Cost?

Sorry Krambo - I misspoke it's not a billet shaft; it is a hardened/treated shaft rated to 700 lb-ft. It comes with the prepared input drum as a package. I ordered everything from Performance Automotive & Transmission Center (PATC); they have several 4L60 pages including a "don't do" page which is very, very informative (I found it so anyway). This is their 4L60E performance parts page, go more than halfway down to part #45 (extreme duty Torque Drive unit).

 

BUT - I do know that these guys have developed a TITANIUM input drum and it held up to 970 lb-ft PATC is bragging that they have a parts combination available that will make a 700R4/4L60 perform behind a 1000 lb-ft motor I didn't have the cahones to ask the price of the titanium input drum, I figured if I had to ask I probably couldn't afford it.

 

Mr. P.

[04CHASE]

Billet input shaft,...where did you pick that puppy up at? Cost?

Sorry Krambo - I misspoke it's not a billet shaft; it is a hardened/treated shaft rated to 700 lb-ft. It comes with the prepared input drum as a package. I ordered everything from Performance Automotive & Transmission Center (PATC); they have several 4L60 pages including a "don't do" page which is very, very informative (I found it so anyway). This is their 4L60E performance parts page, go more than halfway down to part #45 (extreme duty Torque Drive unit).

 

BUT - I do know that these guys have developed a TITANIUM input drum and it held up to 970 lb-ft PATC is bragging that they have a parts combination available that will make a 700R4/4L60 perform behind a 1000 lb-ft motor I didn't have the cahones to ask the price of the titanium input drum, I figured if I had to ask I probably couldn't afford it.

 

Mr. P.

 

 

mr p i need soem contact info if you dont mind. if i can this 4l65e to live behind the power i plan i will pay alot for it, i love the first gear in the 60 and it could save me the heart ache of actually doing the 80e swap which i am planning.

[misterp]

mr p i need soem contact info if you dont mind. if i can this 4l65e to live behind the power i plan i will pay alot for it, i love the first gear in the 60 and it could save me the heart ache of actually doing the 80e swap which i am planning.

Performance Automotive and Transmission Center (PATC) they market the Raptor line of trannies.

 

Mr. P.

[CoolBlueSS]

Holy shitaki mushrooms.

Pimp SS called me a little while ago, and asked if I wanted to ride down with him to bring your tranny back. Only problem is I don't get off till 6:00, and have to be back at work Satuday at 8:00.

[gixxerrider]

MR P sound like you are putting alot of research time in this build. I know I have learn from this. Dont blow the tranny. Do you have pics of the damage?

[misterp]

MR P sound like you are putting alot of research time in this build. I know I have learn from this. Dont blow the tranny. Do you have pics of the damage?

Yeah that's an obsessive fault I have, the compulsion to micro-manage and master whatever I am involved in. I've talked with a few different tranny builders this week and certainly learned a lot on how auto transmissions work as well as lessons these folks have already learned on their own in 4L60E development and some common threads have emerged. I guess I should have done that last time as well, at least the high-dollar high-strength parts I bought would have at least made it into the case. In fact that's pretty much the lesson that sums this whole experience up - "a job half-done is not a job done" meaning that the last person to work on this tranny did install a couple improved parts but only piecemeal: it did have the expensive GM 5-pinion planets, and a Beast shell, and the Borg-Warner sprag, a good pump, and some high-dollar clutches (which got smoked due to improper setup) but OTOH the tranny was doomed to failure because it still had the stock input drum, input shaft, reaction collar etc. Another biggie is that the 4L60E cannot deal with thin steels at all, I mean zero tolerance so if a guy tells you he can install a trick high disc-count clutch pack which uses thinner steels RUN. The whole trans is OE engineered for 380 lb-ft, if you want to modify the tranny for more capacity you cannot just substitute a piece here and a part there, you've got to replace the entire guts of the thing, almost everything that rotates must be upgraded.

 

Also learned that the low speed banging into 2nd behavior contributed by far the most damage to the input drum (and my own suspicion also the teeth on the clutch discs) rather than the WOT high RPM/hp operation because the 2nd accumulator was set-up wrong combined with a separator plate having a 1-2 shift hole drilled larger than 0.090". I'm finding out that the 4L60E is a very unforgiving unit to build correctly, typical mods used successfully in other trannies will not work if applied to 4L60Es especially in these heavy AWD trucks (100% traction!) and a high-strength tranny can be made but there is definitely a special recipie for this trans and most builders are uncovering on their own through 'destructive development'.

 

I'll make sure the busted pieces are preserved; I'm kinda bummed that I won't be there to watch it go back together because it would be nice to take pics of the shattered bits side-by-side with the good pieces. At least this time the trans is in good hands - at least I am POSITIVE that the good parts I've bought thsi time will actually be installed into the case. Last lesson I learned, I got rooked for a good $600 last time.

 

Mr. P.

Edited February 23, 2007 by misterp (see edit history)

[zippy]

I'll add in a bit of info that I've learned on this condition. I've also found the input drum breaking from the input shaft basicly spinning inside of it and essentially blowing it apart as mentioned. One of the main things I don't recomend is a trans that shifts hard all of the time. I recomend stock (or close to stock) shift pressure tables to be used and the shift timing to be used instead of zero'd as some do. When you are driving the truck at part throttle you want just enough pressure in the trans to get the shift to the desired shift time. A trans that shifts hard all of the time will end up breaking a hard part, there is no way around that. You are going to end up with a firm shift none the less if it's built right because the shift will still be quick (low shift time). Higher shift pressures all of the time also create more heat in the trans. A looser converter than stock can take away some of the shock from the hard parts and drivetrain on the shift, also very important. As for clutches, I personally like to use the Raybestos Blue Plate clutches in kit form which also include the recomended steels. I have tried the Z-Pack and didn't have any failures, but then again I didn't with the Blues either and they come with more than just the 3-4 clutch set. I also don't recomend the wide band because they can cause problems with the R/I drum and uneven wear. I personally use the Raybestos Pro Series band. I highly agree that the Borg Warner forward sprag is about the best unit you can buy. (looks very similar to the piece used in the updated 70E part). I am about out of time to type right now, but I can add some more opinion/help in what I've ran into later and let Pladd and MisterP reply to my post.

 

 

On a side note I don't think you're going to get a better input drum setup than what Rossler makes. Actually I don't think there is a better transmission builder out there. Not taking anything away from Chuck at FLT or The Toy shop, their work has also proven to be top notch.