Should I Grab This Wideband?

[detjoe]

I wish I understood that Brad.

 

there are controls in HPT, the DTC controls, AFR. you select it and then you can manually change the AFR. So when I open it up it has a value of 14.7 I turn it on and run the truck to 12.5 and the wideband value goes to 12.5 and the HPT value also changes, but I dont know if the difference in what is being reported is just a little rich or is my set up not correct.

 

I will post up a log ASAP, but what should I log for? I am going to go read on HPT.com and see if I can get a better idea of whats going on.

 

this section is like a ghost town...tumble weed, Brad and me

[detjoe]

http://www.thetuningschool.com/downloads/how_to_setup_wideband.pdf

[shadowsniper3006]

http://www.thetuningschool.com/downloads/how_to_setup_wideband.pdf

 

holy crap..HPT can't just make it work with one or even a couple of wide bands. If HPT said "hey if you buy the LM1 it will will work with our software" i'd buy the Lm1 just so i didn't have to go though that crap.

 

Now i see what you are saying Joe. The only thing i can say is command the AFR with the Lm1 read out not HPT and see what it does, then command the AFR hooked into HPT and see if it matches. Other then that.....I'm sorry to say this is over my head.

[Krambo]

holy crap..HPT can't just make it work with one or even a couple of wide bands. If HPT said "hey if you buy the LM1 it will will work with our software" i'd buy the Lm1 just so i didn't have to go though that crap.

 

 

 

I agree! There is a list that HPT has already configured for the end user. It includes PLX, AEM, FJO etc....however even those will need a correction for voltage offset if you want it spot on. I often wondered why the tuning software companies do not just sell a wideband as a kit with their product. They do not even need a gauge, just the outputs for the operator interface, the sensor and the wiring. Alot of people just want a plug and play, kind of when you buy a new computer...the majority of people just want to turn it on and go on the internet. Rarely do you find a computer that is not internet ready for that purpose.

 

From what I see the Innovate widebands are the most complicated to use and program however are praised for their accuracy.

 

Joe, to make this easier, find out how to make the outputs a 0-5V reference and I can help walk you through setting up a custom input. 0-2V is too small of an output range to be accurate with a good sampling of data.

 

All in all though, that link you posted is pretty sweet. Nice write-up even though it is long and complicated.

[detjoe]

Well I got it!

The vid is really good for getting walked thur setting up a wideband so it can accuratly report back to HPT.

 

First, my LM-1 did not come with the serial cable. SO I tried to make one and it did not work, then I bought one...still no luck! SO I changed the settings in my drivers so it could match the speed of the LM-1 (19,200) and like majic it worked and I was able to use logworks to re-program my LM-1.

 

So I connected my LM-1 to the laptop, opened up the Logworks, and made the folloing changes.

1. speed to 1/6th

2. Output 2 set 0-5v and 10-20 AFR ( I used 20 b/c they used that in the example vid posted above)

3. program the LM-1

 

So now my LM-1 is good to go. you could also change the first analog output if you wanted. Now connect HPT.

 

Insert new EIO>user defined>customLM-1>input the data from the LM-1 (0-5v, 10-20AFR). Then you can fire it up and see if it matches the LM-1 display. If it does not the you can take the difference (>.2) and take that number and subtract it form the base number, this is covered in the tuningschool video.

 

then (I think) you can turn it back on and see if it reads the same, and also use the DTC controls to manually adjust the AFR and see if it matches. I still have to wrap my mind around the error, what whould equal a rich error, rather than a lean condition.

 

So the tuning section is Brad, Kevin and me... and tumble weeds

[BlueAKSSS]

So the tuning section is Brad, Kevin and me... and tumble weeds

 

I'm going to be learning from you guys! I'll try to learn as much as possible! Got my wideband installed and set up HP Tuners for it just have to connect the wideband into HPT still.

[shadowsniper3006]

I'm going to be learning from you guys! I'll try to learn as much as possible! Got my wideband installed and set up HP Tuners for it just have to connect the wideband into HPT still.

 

if you have to learn from me...your in trouble!

[detjoe]

if you have to learn from me...your in trouble!

guess I am in trouble then

but seriously...we are working together, learning together...you have to ask questins to learn and sometimes you'll find your own awnsers...I have posted questions only to find and post my own awnser.

[detjoe]

spent some time last night making sure my LM-1 and HPT were getting the same value. Followed the steps above, making both 0-5v and 10-20AFR. then I made the new EIO and started with the same values from tuningschool.com then I fired up the truck and it was off a little (I used .2 for my first correction) and subtracted that from the base 10, which got me 9.8 in the HPT table for modifiying user created EIO. And now it seems toi work great, and the numbers are alot closer. I could try to dial it in more but I think thats close enuff.

[shadowsniper3006]

so where is the log file......come on i wanna see one with a wideband hooked up, your killing me man

[detjoe]

ok Brad, here you go

1st log is my tune, in SD, w/o pe

2nd log is with my base tune, more agressive driving

3rd is my attempt to tune where I have changed my injector values, the ETC sclar, and log, updated ve and smooth once

 

On a WOT blast I saw a AFR of 9.

 

what should I do now?

widebandtowixom.hpl

widebandbastunewixom.hpl

newifrETCsdopenloop2sm.hpt

[shadowsniper3006]

i was hoping to be able to see the wide-band on the log but i can't. If i use your config file would i be able to see the wide-band?

 

I noticed your truck is picking up KR all through the WOT run. I don't think this is false knock, i think the truck doesn't like either the heat or the advance. Your advance is pretty tame but there is still a problem at the hit of the throttle. it may be the huge swing in advance going from the of idle hit and low cylinder air mass to the larger advance in the higher airmass areas. It may need to be smoothed to get rid of that.

 

What t-stat are you running, she's pretty hot. starting your WOT run at 205. The temps may be causing the KR as the cylinder temp is already hot and then the full throttle keeps pouring on the heat during the run. With a colder stat you may be able to get away with more advance through the run.

 

I also don't like your high advance in the low airmass at the start of the run, then retarding it, and then advancing it again. The advance curve is back wards for what i would think. the faster the motor turns the more advance it needs to start the explosion before the piston gets to TDC. you have less advance in the higher rpms.

 

Something that scares the hell outta me is your PE table.....

I can see your modifying your commanded afr during your WOT run but your PE table is set to 1 across the board which means your not using your PE to change your fuel ratio. How the heck are you changing your AFR at WOT with a PE commanding a 14.68 to 1 AFR.

 

Change your enrichment rate to 4.0 as well.

 

 

I would start out by changing the PE table to 1.170 across the board so you run a 12.5 afr at WOT only. Then i would tweak the VE in to match the commanded 12.5 AFR. After that i would back the advance table down to 26 on your truck and then work th whole WOT section up 1 degree at a time until you see KR in an area. You should see KR in the lower rpm before you see it in the higher rpm doing it that way. Once you get the low rpm set, work your way up the rpm range adding .5 or 1 degree at a time until you see KR.

Edited July 24, 2010 by shadowsniper3006 (see edit history)

[detjoe]

I have a 160 tstat. But it was over 90 when I took those logs so it was really hot out.

 

If you are looking at the tune, I have PE off, so I can tune the VE...or thats what I think I am doing

 

I did not post the basetune.

 

glad you can see something going on...I am still treading water with it

[shadowsniper3006]

i never turned the PE off. How does that work Joe? If your tuning the VE with the PE off wouldn't you be tuning a 14.68 to one AFR all over. My understanding was all the idle and cruising MAP readings need to be tuned to the commanded AFR(14.68). When you get into WOT you tune those MAP values for what your PE is commanding(like a 12.56 across the board). Since PE is based off the idle AFR, when you get it to read the commanded PE AFR(12.56 for ex.) you can change the PE to what ever afr you like and it follows exactly to what you command.

if you put a value of 1 into the PE table the truck would run 14.68.

 

On the dyno i set the PE to 12.56 then tuned the VE table to hit that number. When it was right i ran everything from a 12.1 to 13.0 to a ramp rate starting rich and leaning out in the upper RPMS and it all followed exactly on the wideband.

 

if you tune the VE table for a 12.5 afr in the higher map readings.....when you go into PE it will take that fuel ratio and apply a crap load more fuel to it.

Ex.- if your running a 12.56 with out PE turned on based off your VE table. When you turn PE on its going to take your stoich AFR(the first button in the fuel control screen) which is 14.68 and divide it by the value in the PE table and apply that amount of fuel on top of your 12.5 ratio already. You would have to use your PE table to lean out the motor instead of add fuel to it.

 

am i understanding how your tweaking the VE table?

 

is there someone reading this with more experience then we have that could help out????????

[Krambo]

i never turned the PE off. How does that work Joe? If your tuning the VE with the PE off wouldn't you be tuning a 14.68 to one AFR all over. My understanding was all the idle and cruising MAP readings need to be tuned to the commanded AFR(14.68). When you get into WOT you tune those MAP values for what your PE is commanding(like a 12.56 across the board). Since PE is based off the idle AFR, when you get it to read the commanded PE AFR(12.56 for ex.) you can change the PE to what ever afr you like and it follows exactly to what you command.

if you put a value of 1 into the PE table the truck would run 14.68.

 

On the dyno i set the PE to 12.56 then tuned the VE table to hit that number. When it was right i ran everything from a 12.1 to 13.0 to a ramp rate starting rich and leaning out in the upper RPMS and it all followed exactly on the wideband.

 

if you tune the VE table for a 12.5 afr in the higher map readings.....when you go into PE it will take that fuel ratio and apply a crap load more fuel to it.

Ex.- if your running a 12.56 with out PE turned on based off your VE table. When you turn PE on its going to take your stoich AFR(the first button in the fuel control screen) which is 14.68 and divide it by the value in the PE table and apply that amount of fuel on top of your 12.5 ratio already. You would have to use your PE table to lean out the motor instead of add fuel to it.

 

am i understanding how your tweaking the VE table?

 

is there someone reading this with more experience then we have that could help out????????

 

One thing to always keep in mind is that Ve is an airmass table and not a fuel table. We happen to use the measured AFR to "back calculate" the airmass value for the particular cell in the Ve table.

 

Joe, are you going to ever use the MAF sensor or are you going to try speed density for a while. If you are going to use your MAF, then dialing in the upper protions of the Ve is a waste IMHO since (when using the MAF) your AFR is a function of the MAF table and the Pe table. The Ve will be ignored. Yes, I know there are some adders and such like + LTFT's. The whole MAF failure is thing that many talk about is like finding a needle in a haystack. Some think i am crazy for running the MAF on my truck but it works just fine the way I have it set-up. Calibrating the MAF takes roughly 15 minutes and when your done, your done vs. the Ve which can take hours. Don't get me wrong, I still think the Ve is critical to cal, especially if you are going to use the mixed Ve and MAF for fueling calcs like a stock tune from GM does.

 

Here is what I do.

 

1. Find all of your correct hard coded values like IFR, displacement and such.

2. FILL your tank with ETHANOL FREE high octane. If E10 is the only stuff around, adjust your STOICH to the correct value BEFORE calibrating.

3. Idle tune (long process)

4. Calibrate the lower half of the Ve table 4000 and less. If you want, you can use % AFR error histogram and your wideband and not have to worry about hitting Pe in your tuning since you will be tuning to your commanded AFR, there will be no bias. You can work the entire table in this case. If you want to use your narrowbands, just add a filter to block any values where your commanded is less than 14.68. Never turn off Pe to obtain the higher values in your Ve table. There are many write-ups on just how to do this all over the net.

5. Calibrate the MAF table, both lower half and Pe range (follow my write-up).

 

6. TUNING BEGINS. Play with different commanded AFRs and timing curves to see what one make the most power. Dyno's are best but the track could be just as fun! Since you spent all that time CALIBRATING your airmass tables, you can be confident that when you plug in a comanded 12.5 AFR, you will get a 12.5 on your wideband. Remenber different ethanol fuels will screw with the final AFR. If you calibrate with non ethanol fuel and then fill up with a 10% blend, you will run about 0.5 AFR leaner than commanded provided your LTFT's haven't corrected it yet. It is a simple fix by just changing your STOICH value to match your fuel...or rely on your trims to bring it back in line.

 

Great discussion!!!!