slowfive0 Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 All I can say is wow! The last time I went to the track, it was mid 40's and my truck went 12.21 at 110. Today was 65 so I thought I would get some decent times. I just added a methanol injection kit to my truck and now I was getting 0 detonation and was able to run 20 degrees of timing up top where as last year I could only get about 19 to 19.5 during the 3rd gear pull! Best the truck ran today was 12.73 at 104.7 ......Pathetic..... When I got home, I looked up the weather conditions for the track and it said 98% humidity, Pressure at 30.06in. It didn't feel like 98% humidity to me, but it has been raining lately so maybe so. I just can't believe my truck is off by 1/2 second especially considering I can now make a pass with more timing and no knock retard. Still more work to do with dialing in the truck (amount of meth sprayed, timing, etc) but is this normal? Are you forced inducted guys seeing this much drop from humidity and a little higher ambient temps? Oh, and the 60's were normal (1.7's) for my truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chpspecial Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 .5* of timing isn't going to do much for your overall power. And yes humidity will kill power. sent from my thunderbolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krambo Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 More so than humidity, the temp was the biggest difference for you. With all else being the same, if the temperature was 45 instead of 65, that would equate to about 1000ft better DA. All else being the same, if the humidity was 50%, you would only have about 150ft improvement in DA. After experimenting extensively with the Radix, Ambient temps make the biggest difference. But yes, humidity hurts, especially at near rain %. What concentration of meth are you spraying? Did you adjust your Power Enrichment to compensate for the added fuel? If not you could be very rich and will impact ET drastically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) Some additional info on my setup: It's an AIS kit using a 50/50 mix (-20 Windshield Washer Fluid). He said it would make my air/fuel roughly .5 richer and he was right. I adjust my WOT table to adjust for that. I use HP Tuners. He may have me go to a higher Methanol vs Water concentration, but he wanted to see how we could do with the mix as it is more convenient for a street car and probably cheaper. Last year without the kit, my IAT's would increase in the neighborhood of 52-57^ on a pass. Weather didn't matter as to the IAT increase during a run. My first pass yesterday with twin nozzles (7's), my IAT's increased 40^. 2nd pass I swapped one of the 7's for a 14 that I had and the IAT increase 30^. 3rd and final pass, I swapped in both 7 nozzles (now drilled out with a 1/16" drill bit (per his instructions) and the IAT increased 24^. NOTE: The orifice size of the drilled out nozzle was bigger then the 14 nozzle so I increased the flow quite a bit. He said I had to be careful with the water mix and sizing because if I get to big it will lose power and tend to bog when the kit activates. He said straight methanol would require even bigger nozzles so I'm thinking he is going to have me go to even bigger nozzle sizes and potentially to a higher meth concentration.... For reference sake, my friend had a supercharged setup (TVS1900) and was off about 4 - 4.5 tenths from the May weather). On his log his IAT started at 100 and dropped to 82 by the end of the run. He uses straight Meth (Alky Controls kit). Edited September 25, 2011 by slowfive0 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 .5* of timing isn't going to do much for your overall power. And yes humidity will kill power. sent from my thunderbolt True and I wasn't expecting a big increase from it. However, I wasn't expecting to lose .5 and 5 mph from a 20 degree swing in ambient. I guess the temp with the humidity is what killed me. Just surprised because it felt so nice compared to some of that muggy 80+ weather we've had recently. More so than humidity, the temp was the biggest difference for you. With all else being the same, if the temperature was 45 instead of 65, that would equate to about 1000ft better DA. All else being the same, if the humidity was 50%, you would only have about 150ft improvement in DA. After experimenting extensively with the Radix, Ambient temps make the biggest difference. But yes, humidity hurts, especially at near rain %. What concentration of meth are you spraying? Did you adjust your Power Enrichment to compensate for the added fuel? If not you could be very rich and will impact ET drastically. On the previous line, I posted up some info about the IAT's and meth mix. Makes sense about the temp as my friends TVS 1900 combo was way off the mark too. Is there a good link about DA that I can read up on. Never really understood that subject---lol! Thanks. Also, any idea about how much timing. IIRC, you said you could run about 23^ with no detonation, but you weren't making any more power either..........So am I at the point of diminishing returns. I figured if I could suppress that detonation I was getting last year with no meth, I could substantially improve my track times by running more timing. I'm pulled 21.5 through 1st into 2nd and tapered off to 21 throughout the rest of the run.......No sign of knock anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detjoe Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_altitude Air density is a computation mainly dependent on the temperature, barometric pressure, and the humidity of a volume of air. One can relate to how these factors effect the density of the atmosphere by using a balloon to simulate the earth's atmosphere. When a balloon is filled with air and placed into a refrigerator it begins to shrink. The reason for this is due to the drop in temperature of the air inside the balloon. As the air cools it releases energy and slows down. Because the air molecules are not bouncing off each other as much they remain closer together and more of them will now fit in a smaller area. The opposite will occur if the balloon is heated. This same effect will occur if this balloon is placed in a pressurized chamber. If the pressure in the chamber is increased it pushes the walls of the balloon in causing the air inside to occupy less space. I am going out when its in the 40's for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Cool, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks. I'll post up when we go out again. Planning on the last couple of open weekends prior to Lapeer closing. Crap track, but hooks fine when you're AWD --- have to love these SS's!!!! http://en.wikipedia....ensity_altitude I am going out when its in the 40's for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Just did a bunch of work on the timing map and I must say that I'm very excited. I haven't spent much time down in the lower sections of the map where you cruise around in and my economy hasn't been the best. I would say I picked it up substantially judging by the instant economy display cruising at 70 on the freeway and 40 in the city. Can't wait to drive it for a few weeks and see what my average ends up at. 2nd and more importantly, I really worked on the areas of the map where it transitions from off idle to WOT at the launch up through the rest of the run. Krambos advice here has been invaluable! Thanks a million man! Now that I can actually make a run without any knock due to the meth it runs great with the additional timing in those areas. I'm actually quite rich right now (10.8 - 11.0) so hopefully some decent improvements to come there when I lean it out a little. I'm finding that the logging software is actually pretty accurate, at least when comparing improvements in time from run to run. I compared the times of multiple runs to my time slips and though the times I figured out from the software didn't always match the slips 100%, the difference from file to file did; i.e. if one run was a 12.32 and the other was a 12.39, the log files reflected that difference (.07) pretty accurately. Tonight, I went from a dead stop to the point my converter locked up in 3rd and compared those times to yesterday at the track. I dropped .4 tenths just from today's changes and that wasn't the whole run! Weather conditions were similar (92% humidity/65^/29.89 baro). I still have the e-fans to ad as well. So in "theory" I might expect to pick et in the neighborhood of .4.........seems like that never happens for whatever reason though-LOL!. I'm not going to micro analyze this but I'm hopefully optimistic of a time <12.21.........I would love to run an 11.XX!!!! Thanks for all of the help and support guys----great bunch on this site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Dude awesome - that is exciting; when will you be making your next set of runs at the track? Mr. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) ASAP I hope. My kids play football and that sucks up a lot of my time right now. Either way, as soon as the weather starts to cool way down, I'll be out there if I can break free. Crappy thing about that time of the year is only the die hards come out looking for "the number". And since the track is cold and usually hooks for sh#%, most people either leave or don't show so turnouts are light. Then the next thing that happens is they close early because there are only 10 or 20 cars there. Bastards---lol! Last year I had tested a bunch for the first hour or two and was going to let my truck cool way down for that last bonzai pass and then they announced they were closing early. Curious what it would have run if I could have let it sit for a while. Dude awesome - that is exciting; when will you be making your next set of runs at the track? Mr. P. Edited September 26, 2011 by slowfive0 (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detjoe Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I am interested in how you are going about tuning your transitions...espically timing, I am really sure its timing thats making my truck run poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krambo Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Some additional info on my setup: It's an AIS kit using a 50/50 mix (-20 Windshield Washer Fluid). He said it would make my air/fuel roughly .5 richer and he was right. I adjust my WOT table to adjust for that. I use HP Tuners. He may have me go to a higher Methanol vs Water concentration, but he wanted to see how we could do with the mix as it is more convenient for a street car and probably cheaper. Last year without the kit, my IAT's would increase in the neighborhood of 52-57^ on a pass. Weather didn't matter as to the IAT increase during a run. My first pass yesterday with twin nozzles (7's), my IAT's increased 40^. 2nd pass I swapped one of the 7's for a 14 that I had and the IAT increase 30^. 3rd and final pass, I swapped in both 7 nozzles (now drilled out with a 1/16" drill bit (per his instructions) and the IAT increased 24^. NOTE: The orifice size of the drilled out nozzle was bigger then the 14 nozzle so I increased the flow quite a bit. He said I had to be careful with the water mix and sizing because if I get to big it will lose power and tend to bog when the kit activates. He said straight methanol would require even bigger nozzles so I'm thinking he is going to have me go to even bigger nozzle sizes and potentially to a higher meth concentration.... For reference sake, my friend had a supercharged setup (TVS1900) and was off about 4 - 4.5 tenths from the May weather). On his log his IAT started at 100 and dropped to 82 by the end of the run. He uses straight Meth (Alky Controls kit). -20 washer fluid isn't 50% methanol...its about 30-35%. If you want to make it 50%, you must add three bottles of "HEAT" (the yellow 12oz bottle, which is just a methanol gas antifreeze in simple terms) to one galon of -20 washer fluid . Ideally you want to be around a 50/50 mix for best results of cooling and ocatane boost. Many will not run washer fluid because of the extra lubricants the formulation companies use in the final formula. Snow Performance makes "boost juice" which is a 49/51 meth/H2O conc. and is pure. Much easier to tune as well, as the concentration is always the same. You can also dilute M1 methanol yourself for cheaper. Your track should sell M1. Just my opinion however I feel you are spraying alot of meth but I encourage you for the data! I ultmately used a 625ml/min nozzel at 50/50 concentration for best results. I dialed it all in on the dyno and found minimal reductions on IAT's however the octane did help quench KR. I find it interesting your friend with the TVS 1900 saw that much reduction. And yes, I found no additional power over 23* IIRC. I ended up with an 11.8-11.9AFR, 50/50 meth/water and 21-22* of advance with a 2.8" pulley for the best power combo (for the strip only). Again, as for DA, I found more impact with temperature than overall DA with a max effort Radix 6.0L. However cold temps often bring in lower DA. Racing in 80* temps compared to 40's is HUGE with this combo. Look forward to your new times and data on the methanol injection project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I am interested in how you are going about tuning your transitions...espically timing, I am really sure its timing thats making my truck run poor. What do you mean when you say transitions? Are you just referring to the chart in general and how much timing it should have in a given area? I'll be glad to help u any way I can. I did try to look at your file that you posted but my version is older or something and it won't let me open it.... -20 washer fluid isn't 50% methanol...its about 30-35%. If you want to make it 50%, you must add three bottles of "HEAT" (the yellow 12oz bottle, which is just a methanol gas antifreeze in simple terms) to one galon of -20 washer fluid . Ideally you want to be around a 50/50 mix for best results of cooling and ocatane boost. Many will not run washer fluid because of the extra lubricants the formulation companies use in the final formula. Snow Performance makes "boost juice" which is a 49/51 meth/H2O conc. and is pure. Much easier to tune as well, as the concentration is always the same. You can also dilute M1 methanol yourself for cheaper. Your track should sell M1. I'm on the fence a little but the washer fluid is nice because it readily available and convenient. My understanding of the subject talking to AIS is that the water will do more to reduce the IAT's but the Meth will go farther to increasing the octane. Higher Meth content also requires larger nozzle sizes which in turn uses more solution (bad for me because of the daily driver situation). I'm having no problems with knock what so ever and am happy with the reduction in IAT's (@25^ increase instead of @55^). Thoughts on that (mix)? Just my opinion however I feel you are spraying alot of meth but I encourage you for the data! I ultmately used a 625ml/min nozzel at 50/50 concentration for best results. I dialed it all in on the dyno and found minimal reductions on IAT's however the octane did help quench KR. I find it interesting your friend with the TVS 1900 saw that much reduction. I forget what he said my flow is. I think 20 gallons per hour iirc. Here are my results: Without Methanol Injection: 7 runs (47^ - 57^ increase in IAT's during course of run). Amient temperature didn't seem to matter much on how much temperature it gained during a pass. With Methanol Injection (-20 Windshield Washer fluid): 3 runs 1. (2) "7" nozzles = 40^ increase in IAT 2. (1) "7" nozzle & (1) "14" nozzle = 30^ increase in IAT 3. (2) "7" nozzles drilled out to 1/16" (note: 1/16" drill wouldn't fit in 14 nozzle orifice) = 24^ increase in IAT Some additional testing/info: Made a test pass last night with new updated timing tables (a lot more power all over the board) and only went up to where my converter locks up (just after 3rd gear shift) and my IAT's increased 29. Probably 100mph area iirc. Temps/humidity were very similar (actually almost identical) to my test passes this past weekend. So obviously, moving more air through the engine/blower is resulting in a small increase to IAT temps in theory. Of course I've seen small variation in IAT gains from pass to pass so that is speculation...... And yes, I found no additional power over 23* IIRC. I ended up with an 11.8-11.9AFR, 50/50 meth/water and 21-22* of advance with a 2.8" pulley for the best power combo (for the strip only). Interesting, how it can now tolerate a ton more ignition lead, but doesn't need it. Did you maintain 11.8-11.9 throughout the range? Ever need to richen it up around the torque peak of the motor? Right now I'm richening up the mixture around 4400-4800 range, but may not be necessary.....My timing is pretty much what you stated above. When it drops into 3rd, it holds 22^ and then eventually fades off to 21.......It feels stronger then it has all summer so I hope it runs the number. Again, as for DA, I found more impact with temperature than overall DA with a max effort Radix 6.0L. However cold temps often bring in lower DA. Racing in 80* temps compared to 40's is HUGE with this combo. Makes me feel better. I was really worried something was going south with my motor, but everything seems fine. It has been idling a little rougher then usual for the last month or so. Figured it was the plugs since I'm running a very cold plug with probably 25-30K miles on them. I just bought some NGK plugs that are 1 range colder instead of the 2 ranges that I'm currently using. How much were your times off from summer to winter? Look forward to your new times and data on the methanol injection project! Me too!!!! Thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowfive0 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I find it interesting your friend with the TVS 1900 saw that much reduction. Interesting indeed. He has a Roush blower (TVS 1900 I've been told) on a 5.3. Pulley on blower is untouched obviously, but he is running a bigger crank pulley. IIRC, he is making 8psi of boost. Is running an Alky Controls kit with one nozzle spraying straight Methanol. I spoke to AIS today and he was equally surprised. He has done a lot of testing and hasn't seen changes that low like in this situation before. He doesn't think something was right. I looked at the log again and it definitely is right according to what the log is saying. Started at 100^ and dropped to 82^. Weird, maybe a software issue or??????Blower is more efficient, but that doesn't explain it. Plus, Methanol doesn't usually impact IAT's much at all from what I understand. So WTH!? I don't know...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detjoe Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) I wont get your post off topic, but we need to hit the track. But where you said you did the off idle spots to WOT? Idle good, WOT good, in between not so good I am watching the weather. Edited September 26, 2011 by detjoe (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.