Maybe there is hope for the 4L65e holding up in high power application

[slowfive0]

Anyone seen or use this product yet? Basically a revised input drum setup that allows more 3/4 clutches/steels and alleviates the snap ring blow out problem.............I have a call into their tech support now to obtain more info.

 

Obviously, once you get the right parts inside these transmissions and can get it to live, the limiting factor seems to be the 3/4 clutch. There are some of these transmissions in 8 second cars, but they change the 3/4 clutches regularly. If this drum does what it appears it might.......

 

http://www.sonnax.co...t/77733-06K.pdf

[Downeast Johnny]

This looks pretty good, to me.

 

I hope that a few of the guys who really know transmissions voice their opinions of it.

 

Thanks for the link.

[slowfive0]

No problem. I posted this over at PT too. Take care.

 

http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/drivetrain-suspension-127/maybe-there-hope-4l65e-holding-up-high-power-applications-after-all-507976/#post4994261

 

This looks pretty good, to me.

 

I hope that a few of the guys who really know transmissions voice their opinions of it.

 

Thanks for the link.

[2bfast]

Price? Def wouldnt run it until I see results. Looks like an expensive package as most performance trans packages are.

[slowfive0]

Sonnax wouldn't quote me a price as I wasn't a distributor for them.......

 

I can almost guarantee, it's a lot! LOL! I bet $350-$550. Maybe more!

 

I would have done the 80 conversion the last time (of multiple repairs) my trans broke, but I couldn't afford to be down that long. It is my daily driver and I didn't want to risk getting in over my head with stupid problems.

 

Hind sight, I should have bit the bullet and just did the conversion, because I have a cubic ass load of money in this trans now and I pray to god it lasts! LOL! I know the 3/4 clutch will go eventually and I expect it won't be more then 2-3 years at that. Hopefully, this drum is the real deal and I can have a trans that is semi-durable.

Edited September 21, 2012 by slowfive0 (see edit history)

[Cramer]

I am really curious if this is what my trans builder did to mine. He would not tell me all the specifics on what he did to it other than what I requested, but he did say do not put in a billet 3-4 servo or you will prob break something.

[2bfast]

Sonnax wouldn't quote me a price as I wasn't a distributor for them.......

 

I can almost guarantee, it's a lot! LOL! I bet $350-$550. Maybe more!

 

I would have done the 80 conversion the last time (of multiple repairs) my trans broke, but I couldn't afford to be down that long. It is my daily driver and I didn't want to risk getting in over my head with stupid problems.

 

Hind sight, I should have bit the bullet and just did the conversion, because I have a cubic ass load of money in this trans now and I pray to god it lasts! LOL! I know the 3/4 clutch will go eventually and I expect it won't be more then 2-3 years at that. Hopefully, this drum is the real deal and I can have a trans that is semi-durable.

 

I hear ya. Thanks for sharing this tho. Be interesting to see these in the field and the results. But im still not convinced that adding more clutches and thinner steels is the answer. What kills a trans? Heat. What does metal do when its really hot? It warps. Warped steels are no bueno. But it will still be interesting to follow

Edited September 21, 2012 by 2BFAST (see edit history)

[2bfast]

I am really curious if this is what my trans builder did to mine. He would not tell me all the specifics on what he did to it other than what I requested, but he did say do not put in a billet 3-4 servo or you will prob break something.

 

Thats kinda gay. Not sure what the big secret is. And im not sure why he didnt put the billet 4th apply in.....if anything a billet 2nd apply is what I would be worried about if anyone is talking about "harsh shifts". I wouldnt worry to much about 4th as its the release of the 2nd apply and apply of the 3/4 clutches is the issue here. Hence why Sonnax is trying to come up with a solution to the input drum design. He is correct about to harsh of a shift will break parts but not putting a certain part in such as the 4th isnt the solution. The GM servo they put in Corvettes and a billet 4th apply are fine and the harsh shift can be softened with tuning.

[Cramer]

Well the gayness of it is the fact that he is a R&D tech for TransGo and that I had to take it to him every month for 6 months to check it out. The trans was a test unit that they were doing research on different components with their products. I have adjusted my line pressures on everything since it was very harsh on ALL shifts even without the 3-4 servo. With this housing set up is it recommended to use a 3-4 servo since there are more plates in the basket?

[slowfive0]

I agree with u completely. That is what is so neat about the drum. It has a more robust 3/4 pressure plate that is bolted to the end of the housing instead of retained by a snap ring down in the housing. This physically allows more clutches/steels because the area the clutches reside in has been increased.

 

I hear ya. Thanks for sharing this tho. Be interesting to see these in the field and the results. But im still not convinced that adding more clutches and thinner steels is the answer. What kills a trans? Heat. What does metal do when its really hot? It warps. Warped steels are no bueno. But it will still be interesting to follow

 

All the new drum is doing is allowing more clutches (surface area; ie increased holding power)

 

Well the gayness of it is the fact that he is a R&D tech for TransGo and that I had to take it to him every month for 6 months to check it out. The trans was a test unit that they were doing research on different components with their products. I have adjusted my line pressures on everything since it was very harsh on ALL shifts even without the 3-4 servo. With this housing set up is it recommended to use a 3-4 servo since there are more plates in the basket?

[2bfast]

Well the gayness of it is the fact that he is a R&D tech for TransGo and that I had to take it to him every month for 6 months to check it out. The trans was a test unit that they were doing research on different components with their products. I have adjusted my line pressures on everything since it was very harsh on ALL shifts even without the 3-4 servo. With this housing set up is it recommended to use a 3-4 servo since there are more plates in the basket?

 

For the record the servo you are referring to as the "3-4" is just the 4th apply. It applys the 2/4 band for overdrive.

 

And the more clutches you stack in the drum has nothing to do with the 4th apply servo. It is the input drum that is the issue here as far as apply and release timing.

 

 

I agree with u completely. That is what is so neat about the drum. It has a more robust 3/4 pressure plate that is bolted to the end of the housing instead of retained by a snap ring down in the housing. This physically allows more clutches/steels because the area the clutches reside in has been increased.

 

All the new drum is doing is allowing more clutches (surface area; ie increased holding power)

 

I think you are missing my point. It says you can run more plates which you can do that with a factory input drum anyway. But what im saying is I dont agree with using thinner steels for the reason I posted above. It just doesnt make sense to me.

Edited September 22, 2012 by 2BFAST (see edit history)

[slowfive0]

I guess I'm not following you. I've cut and pasted the blurb from Sonnax's website about this part. You do have the option of using thinner steels if you want, but you don't have to (and I agree that it is a bad way to go as the steels can't manage the heat well and tend to warp). You can use regular thickness pieces, but get more clutches in because of the new way the 3/4 backing plate is attached and it being thinner. See the highlighted sections for reference.

 

"The Sonnax Smart-Tech input housing kit 77733-06K addresses five weak areas of the GM 4L60, 4L60-E, 4L65-E, 4L70-E input housing: (1) flexing/bowing of the 3-4 backing plate, (2) limited 3-4 clutch torque capacity, (3) 3-4 snap-ring blow-out, (4) input housing breakage near the input shaft spline, and (5) input housing fatigue failure. Flexing/bowing of OE and other aftermarket backing plates is eliminated with Sonnax’s heavy duty bolt-on backing plate. This unique design ensures even clamping of the 3-4 clutches in higher horsepower, higher pressure applications. By eliminating the 3-4 snap ring and using a thinner yet stiffer apply plate, space is made available for additional frictions and steels. This makes it possible to simultaneously increase clutch torque capacity and eliminate the possibility of retaining ring blow-out. A steel reinforcement sleeve prevents breakage in the spline area. Housing fatigue failure resistance and housing life are significantly improved with a special treatment process that greatly reduces stress crack formation.

 

Features & Benefits

• Zero-flex, bolt-on 3-4 clutch backing plate eliminates uneven clamping pressure, resulting in increased clutch durability

• Increased 3-4 clutch torque capacity will accept either:

• Eight .067" frictions with seven .095" steels

• Nine .062" frictions with eight .077" steels

• Eliminates snap-ring blow-out"

 

 

I think you are missing my point. It says you can run more plates which you can do that with a factory input drum anyway. But what im saying is I dont agree with using thinner steels for the reason I posted above. It just doesnt make sense to me.

[slowfive0]

Some comparison pics (stock on left/modified on right).

 

Looks like they basically machined off the end of the drum and installed a machined backing plate. Doing this with a high strength piece of material that wouldn't flex allowed them to keep the overall dimension (length) of the housing intact but allows more clutches (due to thinness of backing plate) to be placed in drum then could otherwise be used due to the snap ring design (OEM had to have some meat left at the end of the housing to retain the snap ring and not blow out..........So I'm "Assuming" they are moving up into the area of the former snap ring. That seems to make sense, but I'm very curious about the 3/4 clutch return springs......Hopefully, Vince or someone who has used these will chime in.....

Edited September 22, 2012 by slowfive0 (see edit history)

[2003_SuperSport]

If you want to build or buy a 4l65e capable of 600, 700, or 1000hp then you must check the site below. I myself have bought and used parts from this company for two years now and last spring rebuilt my tranny to their level 4 mega raptor specs capable and reliable up to 700-700 HP/TQ. Their level 5 extreme raptor is advertised to handle up to 1000hp on a 4l60e/4l65e. Check it out its an awesome sight and reasonable prices. I got my red eagle alto clutches, beast reaction sunshell, servos, etc.... and we already have the updated planetaries for being the 4l65e in the SS.

They have a bunch of options. level 3 raptor is for 600hp and 450tq but with a few extra parts they can make it 600/600. With a few more parts and updates they turn it from a level 3 to a level 4 mega raptor making it 700/700. With this no more 4l80 conversion unless you want over 1000hp which would only be a select few people.

 

http://www.transmiss...r.net/4l60e.htm

Edited September 22, 2012 by 2003_SuperSport (see edit history)

[2bfast]

Some comparison pics (stock on left/modified on right).

 

Looks like they basically machined off the end of the drum and installed a machined backing plate. Doing this with a high strength piece of material that wouldn't flex allowed them to keep the overall dimension (length) of the housing intact but allows more clutches (due to thinness of backing plate) to be placed in drum then could otherwise be used due to the snap ring design (OEM had to have some meat left at the end of the housing to retain the snap ring and not blow out..........So I'm "Assuming" they are moving up into the area of the former snap ring. That seems to make sense, but I'm very curious about the 3/4 clutch return springs......Hopefully, Vince or someone who has used these will chime in.....

 

You can stack the exact clutch packs in an OEM drum tho. So your arent gaining anything there in my opinion. The only thing I see ( and I hope someone corrects me if im wrong ) that is benificial with this drum is the blow out issue of the snap ring with a bolt in design. You can install a billet collar for the input shaft spline to prevent blowout on an OEM drum. I like what they are trying to do which again im excited to see these in the field and see the results but its still not a fix and I dont think there will be. If you want to run big power, drop your nuts and run an 80E. There is a reason GM built the 4L80 trans and its to withstand abuse AND retain overdrive compared to the TH400.

 

As far as the clutch return springs....I think thats taboo when it comes to building an input drum. Along with a laundry list of other things having to do with a 60.

 

 

If you want to build or buy a 4l65e capable of 600, 700, or 1000hp then you must check the site below. I myself have bought and used parts from this company for two years now and last spring rebuilt my tranny to their level 4 mega raptor specs capable and reliable up to 700-700 HP/TQ. Their level 5 extreme raptor is advertised to handle up to 1000hp on a 4l60e/4l65e. Check it out its an awesome sight and reasonable prices. I got my red eagle alto clutches, beast reaction sunshell, servos, etc.... and we already have the updated planetaries for being the 4l65e in the SS.

They have a bunch of options. level 3 raptor is for 600hp and 450tq but with a few extra parts they can make it 600/600. With a few more parts and updates they turn it from a level 3 to a level 4 mega raptor making it 700/700. With this no more 4l80 conversion unless you want over 1000hp which would only be a select few people.

 

http://www.transmiss...r.net/4l60e.htm

 

And I havnt heard very good luck with Alto reds in the 3/4 at all. In fact the ones I have seen use them had failures 5 times quicker than say the Raybestos or Borg Warners. I have bought parts from them but wouldnt go any where near to rate their trans to those specs.