BenKey Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 You better make those heads 77cc. Boost will be pretty hard with 72cc chambers. It won't be much better with 77cc. Unless you only want to make 8lbs of boost. I would rather build a motor for FI from the getgo if that is what I planned. But if I wanted FI, I wouldn't want my CR to hold me back. Eric and I built our 408s nearly the same starting out. Mine was built to handle 15lbs of boost with a turbo, he built his for slightly more I believe. My point is build right (8.5-9.0:1) for FI, or don't build it at all. Or like I said, if you only want maybe 10lbs max boost you could do it your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 IMO the little rule about CI with FI is flawed. Like we discussed over on pt.net the kid with the 6L with a procharger you said its like him having 700+CI motor well realistically lets say I make 550 at the crankyou honestly telling me that he is making 953chp. Umm not only no but hell no. Simple algebraic equation 550/418=1.31x728=953 FI can only make up so much true you may be putting twice as much air in but you have parasitic loss from the power adder and you also have the inefficiences of the motor at higher hp levels IE heat retention, friction in any number of places, and the list goes on. Me personally I dont like to be out a vehicle so I would rather build the strong base for FI then blow a motor and have to shit a 408. I built my motor for FI it is running 11.1 CR and well you cans ee the cam Im running. I built it for N/A right now so when I do switch to FI all I have to do is a head swap from my 62cc combustion chambers to some 72cc ones and an FI cam and make 800+hp with a big turbo. You have to plan ahead IMO the shortblock was designed with both apps in mind thus I ended up with small dished pistons with plans for a large combustion chamber later on. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, yeah. Like was explained over there, it's physics, man. At WOT with your 14.7psi of ambient pressure, you displace 52.25ci of air per cylinder (418ci for all 8). Simple fact is p1v1 = p2v2, so when you double the pressure, that same 52.25ci of air now fits into 1/2 of your cylinder (26.125ci of space). In other words, it takes twice as much air to fill the cylinder as it does without the extra atmosphere of boost. Since we all know that displacement is measured by the amount of air pumped by the piston, if you are doubling the amount of air in the cylinder, you are doubling the displacement. Your horsepower arguments are vacuous -- an 836ci motor doesn't double your horsepower, but having 836ci makes more power than 460ci. Anyway you make your own argument against this... There are parasitic losses and inefficiencies involved in NA too. It just isn't a linear increase like you want it to be, NA or FI. Your numbers are estimates anyway aren't they? I thought you haven't been to the dyno? I hit 550 chp at round 6-7psi. I doubt you are seeing that NA on just 10 extra cubes and 1.5:1 more compression. You're in for a rude awakening when you go FI... Changing your chamber size by 10cc will only drop your CR from 11.1 to ~10:1. If you want to make 800hp with a big turbo, you'd better plan on 8.6-8.5:1 or so. That will get you around 18psi on these engines. At 10:1 you can safely run about 12psi, which will never get you 250+hp. Let me put it another way... My CR is 8.6:1 and I have 72cc chambers AND 28.6cc dishes in the pistons. I *might* squeeze 800-850 out of it, but I wouldn't expect much more. Parish got what? 1022rwhp on 22psi at -- you guessed in 8.6:1 and 72cc chambers and dished pistons. Your dish must be around 12ccs to make your motor 11.1:1 (or 13ccs if you meant 11:1). Assuming that dish, to get a low enough CR to run big boost, you need a minimum of 87cc chambers for 8.75:1 (and I should not I believe 77ccs is the maximum chamber size on 317 castings -- someone correct me if I'm wrong). At that CR you could push to 18psi and maybe survive a bit, but wouldn't push past 16psi personally. As I recall, 8.6:1 + 18psi is right on the dynamic cylinder pressure limit for these blocks. And anyway, aren't you back arguing my side of the coin again? All you have to do is replace your heads and cam (and to hit the HP you want, pistons and headgaskets). If I were you, I'd get the engine maxed NA and hope you're at 550. If so, slap a 250 pill (or a 2 stage) on there and you have your HP goal. None of that changes the physics of it, nor does it change the fact that a guy with a 6.0L and 15psi is likely making more power than you do NA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenKey Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1slow01z71 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I dont doubt he is making more hp than me he is. I dont deny that but I just dont think he is making this huge amount more hp than your equation refers to. I am a Mechanical Engineering major I am well aware of physics, air dynamics, etc etc. No I dont know for sure that I am making 550hp but I will bet my truck I am making it at the crank like I said. I am going to go to a carb intake with a dp nitrous setup on it, bigger cam, bigger heads, and go from there. I am going to max my combo out before FI. Ill have to call the speed shop tomorrow and recheck my what my CR is. The man that figured out my setup figured it on a 62cc combustion chamber then on a 72/73cc combustion chamber and would net me low low 9:1 CR. We can sit around and bench race all we want and its not going to change a thing. Your calculations are correct but the power to go along with this "increase" in CI isnt there IMO. An NA motor is more efficient than an FI motor is my point no parasitic loss from a PA and no excessivelly high IATs. I may not be able to push a hige amount of boost on my motor in its current form but I am a college student and pay for my own shit I had to make a compromise for my setup. Ill take CIs over FI any day because at the end of the day I can still put a PA on it and spank that ass. Im not lucky enough to be able to afford a turbo and a stroker motor at the same time my 20 year old pocket book has its limits. It has been my experience though that setups being equal and nitrous fed vehicle on the street will beat an FI vehicle. As far as how much Ill be able to boost my motor we will see I will get the largest combustion chambers I can I have been talking to ETP about head options and they may have something for me with one of their castings but I dont know yet. I will be using a set of their heads for my N/A setup most likely the 240s maybe the 255s if Im feeling frisky. Only thing I worry about is driveability and fouling plugs with the 255s but then again I dont drive my truck very much anyway. Like I said before I dont have the luxury of doing a turbo and stroker build at the same time thus I had to make a compromise and I ended up with the setup that I have. make fun my choices make my setup look like shit I dont care it gets the job done and performs I am happy with what it took me almost a year to save up for. Also when I do my head swap I wont be going with a 317 casting head and I dont have a 317 casting head on there now. My edelbrock intake and wilson manifolds direct port setup is on order my plan is to spray the shit out of this motor till I can get a turbo on there. I can spray up to a 450 shot with it so I bring my own atmosphere with me and hot weather doestn effect me and no heat soak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I did your CR calculations with 62cc heads to get the 12ccs. The only way you are lower than 11:1 is if you are running thicker head gaskets than GM MLS or if you are running a different piston deck height from stock. Even if you don't run 317s (not sure what else you could be running besides c5rs which wont work with your intake, or AFRs/ DARTs/ Edelbrocks which have less room as I recall than 317s) or the iron heads (8xx?) which I know nothing about, I doubt you'll find a head that can get you 87cc chambers. Of course if you CR now is lower, that changes things, but means you are running significantly more than a little dish (like 20ccs or more). Point is, bro, as far as power goes displacement is displacement. HP is a function of combustion -- directly related to how much oxygen and gasoline you can get to explode inside that cylinder. The parasitic loss argument doesn't really apply to turbos and does take some off the top of the SC applications but not enough to make up for 300ci of displacement. The friction argument is still vacuous -- an NA engine has the same friction losses. The IAT argument is not vacuous but easily controled with an intercooler, etc. I know guys running 20psi of boost who's IATs are lower than your NA IATs. The simple fact is this: For each atmosphere of boost you add, you add your base displacement to the displacement of your engine and the appropriate amount of HP. Yes, it is around the same amount of horsepower that the the engine could make if it was that physical displacement, unless you cripple it by running more boost than you can cool. That's why people run 6:1. 8* total timing and run 24-30psi in GNs and Supras. That's why FI cars runs such high boost on 3.5L engines. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is why FI is done at all, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 As far as how much Ill be able to boost my motor we will see I will get the largest combustion chambers I can I have been talking to ETP about head options and they may have something for me with one of their castings but I dont know yet. I will be using a set of their heads for my N/A setup most likely the 240s maybe the 255s if Im feeling frisky. Only thing I worry about is driveability and fouling plugs with the 255s but then again I dont drive my truck very much anyway. Like I said before I dont have the luxury of doing a turbo and stroker build at the same time thus I had to make a compromise and I ended up with the setup that I have. make fun my choices make my setup look like shit I dont care it gets the job done and performs I am happy with what it took me almost a year to save up for. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Runner size is much less important for FI than is chamber size. When I had a set of ETPs from APE they were stock 317 castings. Maybe that's changed, but still, dude, I doubt you are getting 87cc chambers on heads for a 6.0L block. No one's making fun of your choices or making your setup look like shit. I always thought you made the best choice for you because you wanted to put a 5000hp shot on it as I recall ;P Moving to FI from that point just underlines all the points I made above -- not nearly as simple as bolting on an FI kit to your engine. However, if the choice is FI or stroker first, followed by the other option, FI first gets my vote for all the reasons expressed above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1slow01z71 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I am running stock thickness head gaskets .054 I believe so in case I did blow out ahead gasket I could throw a stocker on in a pinch. I am running DART 205s at the moment. "Supposedly" these heads can punched out to around 75-76ccs according to a guy from USA Racing engines in houston. Honestly I seem to remember a 22cc dish being thrown around I am going to call the speed shop tomorrow and find out for sure what it is exactly. I honestly feel I can hit 800rwhp with my current shortblock but we will see. I know I can hit it on the hose but thats no fun and nitrous gets old. I have looked into the C5R heads but there really isnt a point when I can go with the 11* 265 heads from ET. I wont go with a thicker head gasket when I go FI either as Im sure you know that would make for some fun problems with cylinder pressures. I am running cometic head gaskets ATM and I think they will work just fine. Just what I cant get over is turboed 5.3s that are putting out high 400s low 500s and s/c'ed trucks too putting out mid 500s and honestly I think I will put 450 to the wheels with my setup and they have FI so the equation of yours doesnt really seem to justify anything in these cases it may be true in built motors with extremely eficient turbo systems but it doesnt seem to work with what people are putting down. With the exception of CurtD his system is extremely efficient and puts down some damn good power but unfortunately it didnt equate good track numbers he ran a low 12 if I remember correctly. Like I said I worked my ass off for my setup and so far it has done what I wanted except blow my built 65e but I am happy for now and the next round of mods will go in late this summer. My setup may not be the best but its the best i could get with the funds I had and the goal I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I am running stock thickness head gaskets .054 I believe so in case I did blow out ahead gasket I could throw a stocker on in a pinch. I am running DART 205s at the moment. "Supposedly" these heads can punched out to around 75-76ccs according to a guy from USA Racing engines in houston. Honestly I seem to remember a 22cc dish being thrown around I am going to call the speed shop tomorrow and find out for sure what it is exactly. I honestly feel I can hit 800rwhp with my current shortblock but we will see. I know I can hit it on the hose but thats no fun and nitrous gets old. I have looked into the C5R heads but there really isnt a point when I can go with the 11* 265 heads from ET. I wont go with a thicker head gasket when I go FI either as Im sure you know that would make for some fun problems with cylinder pressures. I am running cometic head gaskets ATM and I think they will work just fine. Just what I cant get over is turboed 5.3s that are putting out high 400s low 500s and s/c'ed trucks too putting out mid 500s and honestly I think I will put 450 to the wheels with my setup and they have FI so the equation of yours doesnt really seem to justify anything in these cases it may be true in built motors with extremely eficient turbo systems but it doesnt seem to work with what people are putting down. With the exception of CurtD his system is extremely efficient and puts down some damn good power but unfortunately it didnt equate good track numbers he ran a low 12 if I remember correctly. Like I said I worked my ass off for my setup and so far it has done what I wanted except blow my built 65e but I am happy for now and the next round of mods will go in late this summer. My setup may not be the best but its the best i could get with the funds I had and the goal I want. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very few guys are running 15psi. Most guys on stock blocks are running less than 10 or 10. Line up against that guy with the 15psi and let me know how ya feel I ran 10 on stock cubes and was about 550-580 calculated chp (I never made it to the dyno on the stock 65 either hehe Finished street tuning and blew the tranny on the same day and did the 408 since I had the tranny out anyway). I ran it a little at 12 but ran out of fuel pump so that was out. As far as the equation not meaning anything... Have you looked at Parish's latest dyno? Do you honestly think anyone can match that NA on a 6.0L block? Look at my 14psi numbers... I had to lift at 5300rpm becuase the spark plug wires were on fire. Thats a mustang AWD dyno on pump gas. You mean to tell me that a 460 is going to beat that without a power adder and still drive home? Anyway bro, I learned a long time ago, truth is relative and something about horses and water ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1slow01z71 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I was just saying what I have seen on the dyno list over on pt.net. Not saying its impossible at all. I know your dyno numbers had alot left in it, something about melting shit down and catching shit on fire So I just want to get something straight and see what you think. If I were to have say my 418 with top notch heads, large N/A cam, fast or comparable intake and perfect tuning you dont think I could hang with 5.3 with a turbo on 10psi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I was just saying what I have seen on the dyno list over on pt.net. Not saying its impossible at all. I know your dyno numbers had alot left in it, something about melting shit down and catching shit on fire So I just want to get something straight and see what you think. If I were to have say my 418 with top notch heads, large N/A cam, fast or comparable intake and perfect tuning you dont think I could hang with 5.3 with a turbo on 10psi? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If he's all stock and assuming clone of your truck in weight, tires, yaddy, but most likely you get the light. If he's got heads and cam or you both have stock 5.3 heads and cam? I think he takes ya... 5.3 @ 15psi with top notch heads, optimal turbo cam, etc.? He wins imo (And note -- no stock bottom end truck is going to live long at 15psi, so we're assuming a lot of things here, like forged gear). 6.0L and a turbo at 10psi (all stock) vs. your top notch NA is more questionable but he probably wins. Against your stock heads and cam, or with heads and cam on the 6.0L he wins. 6.0L at 15psi, heads, etc., he gets the win. Now, here's a few questions for you: Stock everything and a 535ci vs your top notch gear NA, who wins? Heads and cam 535ci? Same too questions with a 642, 606, and 692. My answers are the same as above (in the same order). Also, as I said, we can count the dyno numbers for runs over 10psi on pt.net on one hand (maybe two now, but more likely still one). More food for thought: The fastest turbo only 1/4 run is a 11.35 on a 5.7 (Quicksilverado's truck -- I don't remember exactly but I think it was 11psi) The fastest NA only truck is a 6.0 and a full second behind (lilreddevil). The next fastest NA truck is 1.5 seconds and a 6.0... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1slow01z71 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Tis true tis tru not alot of good dyno proof floating around. A cam makes a HUGE difference on an FI app my buddy mjhoward and I put one in his truck and there was a much larger difference than even my larger cam in my old 5.3. My whole thing is walking before you run get a good base before you go further. I dont have an extra vehicle at the moment for when my truck is down I have a bike but..... If I had an extra vehicle I would have went with a turbo first and a 6L but there again main form of transportation cant be down. I think my combo maxed out woul take the 535 and 606 with stock cam and heads but with heads and cam of course I would be toast. What is the biggest an LSx motor can be punched out too I have never read anything about that? I hear form a little birdie that a certain company is coming out with an aftermarket casting for us. It will be around 2100 bucks for it so who knows I may do that in a year instead of a turbo. many options and my mind chages with the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Tis true tis tru not alot of good dyno proof floating around. A cam makes a HUGE difference on an FI app my buddy mjhoward and I put one in his truck and there was a much larger difference than even my larger cam in my old 5.3. My whole thing is walking before you run get a good base before you go further. I dont have an extra vehicle at the moment for when my truck is down I have a bike but..... If I had an extra vehicle I would have went with a turbo first and a 6L but there again main form of transportation cant be down. I think my combo maxed out woul take the 535 and 606 with stock cam and heads but with heads and cam of course I would be toast. What is the biggest an LSx motor can be punched out too I have never read anything about that? I hear form a little birdie that a certain company is coming out with an aftermarket casting for us. It will be around 2100 bucks for it so who knows I may do that in a year instead of a turbo. many options and my mind chages with the wind. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Neglecting the c5r blocks... So far the biggest I've actually seen pictures of is a 418 ;) I've heard a 422 lives out there but no one knows who or where. I've also heard someone has some magic numbers to get a 427 out of the 6.0 block, but I don't buy it. Not without sleeves and magic dust anyway ;) The reason I asked you those ci questions is probably obvious, but a 5.3 on 10psi ~= 535ci, on 15psi ~= 646ci, the 6.0 on 10psi ~= 606, and the 6.0 on 15 psi ~= 692ci. Man I still say if you can run that huge shot, get your tune solid, a tranny that can stay in the truck with that shot and run it -- that's a heck of a lot of power (in real terms, what? 375hp?) That puts you very high on the dyno list and the fastest truck list... That's around, say 16-18psi on the turbo and you're already set up for it... Yeah you can't whistle while you go fast, but hey you can shoot flames ;) I think you made the right choice given your perclivity for the juice, but that wasn't the OP's question LOL I just reread the thread... Um. I think I'm somehow posting in the wrong thread . I could swear the original question was about which to build first, stroker or FI... but its about how to run 12s NA. Someone slap me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1slow01z71 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I will always be a nitrous junkie I love the instant power at teh flip of button. My S-10 project that I will start next year will be sprayed or a small turbo havent decided just yet. Realistically this motor will only get a 300 shot tops unless Im on the edge of some certain precipice and need a little nudge to get over it. Found the post I was thinking of 455 is the biggest anyone has gone. Makes the wheels start spinning once again and I can get rid of my POS Eagle crank. 455=4.25 stroke and a resleeved block. Traction is my biggest enemy right now and Im getting JAG to build me basically a copy of the FLT Level 5 80e but they are local so no shipping charges and in person support. I think what we have talked about is relevant to what the original gusy was talking about maybe further than he wanted to take it though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I will always be a nitrous junkie I love the instant power at teh flip of button. My S-10 project that I will start next year will be sprayed or a small turbo havent decided just yet. Realistically this motor will only get a 300 shot tops unless Im on the edge of some certain precipice and need a little nudge to get over it. Found the post I was thinking of 455 is the biggest anyone has gone. Makes the wheels start spinning once again and I can get rid of my POS Eagle crank. 455=4.25 stroke and a resleeved block. Traction is my biggest enemy right now and Im getting JAG to build me basically a copy of the FLT Level 5 80e but they are local so no shipping charges and in person support. I think what we have talked about is relevant to what the original gusy was talking about maybe further than he wanted to take it though <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link that 455 brother Yah a "little" past 12s NA, huh lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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