misterp Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 (edited) Yeah another long post; but hey I'm sharing! No I did not get any pics today; I will try to post some carnage pics later, I'm overwhelmed right now and it just didn't happen. This has been a kinda crappy weekend, I'm conciously trying to look at the bright side of things right now; honestly without the support of a a couple good friends I would be really upset. I learned a lot this weekend, I have never been walked though an automatic tranny teardown before today; and I also learned about the recurring P0757 codes I've been seeing over the last 12-months. If you are plagued with these codes as well, there might be some insight here for you. Yesterday morning I was driving the SS, just leaving my house into it about 1/2-throttle when the truck shifted into 2nd with a very loud BANG and there I was, freewheeling; I stopped in the street about 20-30 ft from my driveway with no gears at all, no forward, reverse, nothing. The truck still had Park, so at least there was nothing wrong with the transfer case and a look underneath showed no external damage or escaping fluid; I called a friend here and at his suggestion pulled the dipstick and observed that the transmission fluid level was several INCHES higher than the normal fill line, suggesting that the tranny was not pumping ATF. So initial thoughts were the front pump had grenaded during application of 2nd gear, and as the SS is my only transportation and I was desperate we made arrangements for me to bring the tranny in ASAP for an emergency pump swap and maybe with a little luck I would have the truck back on the road in time to drive to work Monday morning. So I worked solo until 2:30 am to get everything out of the truck (yeah I know, I'm slow) and my garage floor looks like I slaughtered a tranny in there (fluid everywhere)! The good news is that I did not rip all the skin off my forearm like last time. So I borrow a car for the day, catch 4-hrs cat nap, and meet my friend at his shop this morning all psyched to fix the supposedly dead pump. We're a fine pair, I'm sick and working on 4-hrs sleep and he tells me that he's just partied all night and not slept at all... So we get to work and imagine our surprise when we disassemble the pump and see that it looks good, in fact it looks really damned good. So we continue unloading the case and the first evidence of any issue is a completely abused 2nd clutch pack, and I mean so bad the friction materials were half-worn away and what lining was left was gritty feeling and simply touching it left clutch material on your fingers, it was disintegrating that bad (in 25K-miles?!); the overheating/ slipping had been so bad the steels were blued - it was apparent that 2nd was not holding like it should have been for a very long time. The words used were 'what the hell kind of POS clutches are these?' The steel 2nd band drum likewise was also shot, but again we thought no big deal as there were a couple usable spares in the transmission boneyard. Interestingly my 2nd apply band was in perfect shape, looking brand new in fact. Then an "A-HAH!" moment, we discovered what we initially thought to be "the real problem"; installed against the 2nd clutch piston is an assembly of small return springs, and their cage had been sheared clean through by it's retainer/snap ring! Impressive, but we thought no big deal as there were again lots of spares at our disposal in the boneyard. But next was a heart-stopper: out of habit my friend took a quick glance around the input drum splines and spotted a small hairline crack (I wouldn't have seen it if not pointed out to me) - once what was being explained to me started to sink in I understood this to be a very bad deal, a replacement input drum would be required. And in the process of gutting the input drum we found every clutch pack inside to be just totally shot; the overrun clutch pack was so fried as to be *black*, the highly regarded Z-Pack 15-element 3/4 clutch was not only burned but warped, and the teeth on a lot of clutches were heavily chewed, one of the steels gouged halfway through... Then the best for last - after completely emptying the input drum we could see that the entire spline area had fractured into hundreds of little pieces; this is undoubtedly what let go and made the big BANG. This is undoubtedly going to cost many hundreds of dollars in parts to repair; and labor, and favors, and lost sleep... So this is our assessment at the moment - I was only 1/2-way into the throttle when the input drum exploded; it's rated at 380 lb-ft, and I was not making anywhere near that kind of power at that moment of failure. There is no real way to prove this as it is a theory, again I repeat only a theory, but it is the only one that we think fits the facts: it appears that the crack in the input drum was present at the time it was installed by the last builder (likely a result of improper installation of the input shaft into the input drum) - this crack bled off pump pressure causing clutch slippage and over long-term heavy clutch wear, making the clutch packs "looser" which exacerbated the wear until the clutches began to eat themselves. At the time of failure, the clutches were well on their way out, this is now corroborated by the repeated P0757 codes I've been getting for the last 12-months which were tracked-down to excess burnt clutch friction material plugging tiny bleed orifices in the transmission. This problem is not new, the tranny has been a time-bomb for many months. If the input drum had not blown spectacularly like it did, I would have had the tranny out sometime very soon as the P0757 codes were being logged by the PCM every other day; I was foolish and discarded them as a wiring fault, or tempermental solenoid, or PCM tune not being right for a high-stall converter, etc. In fact the P0757 code is mislabled and misunderstood - in the book the description says "Solenoid B Poor Performance" but what that translates to in lay terms is that the hydraulic circuit Solenoid B controls is being prevented from releasing correctly because of low line pressure (blockage) somewhere, meaning that clutches are not being completely released and allowed to drag/slip and BURN; these piston bleed orifices are tiny, think a couple human hairs tiny - it does not take much to plug them. On the non-technical side, I am very angry with the last person that built this transmission, because at the time as an uneducated consumer I instructed that person to "do it once, do it right, I'll pay whatever is required..." and when I got my tranny back I was personally assured that all internals were the best available and the transmission was ready for 600+ lb-ft of torque, in fact the exact words used were "yes certainly put a Radix on it and take it to the strip..." and today I was very disappointed to see with my own eyes that no, I did not get the parts installed into the case that I asked for AND believed I had paid for over a year-and-a-half ago. Questionable as to whether I got a hardened input shaft or input drum, and definitely inferior/defective 2nd clutch pack, both items are of critical importance in a performance AWD truck. Live and learn. Same life lesson yet again - you are who you keep company with. Mr. P. Edited February 19, 2007 by misterp (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaotik1 Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Damn P that is some bad luck. I hope that when my deal get set straight I am not in your shoes, becuase I am having my trans built. But the shop doing the work, is not close enough for me to return to if I have issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Damn P that is some bad luck. I hope that when my deal get set straight I am not in your shoes, becuase I am having my trans built. But the shop doing the work, is not close enough for me to return to if I have issues. I'm in the same boat, I cannot return mine to the original builder either; but I have someone here I know is comptetent and will follow through. Thanks for the Good Luck, we'll be jamming gears again really soon. Mr. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04CHASE Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 (edited) wow that sucks P , i guess thats why they are no longer sponsers for the site. the weird thing is after i adjusted the amount i let my converter slip i never get the p0757 code any more. but i have swapped out the solenoid a few times befroe and it came back. i do know i do have the hardened input drum and all but i have my pan dropped and check everything i can very often. did you find anythign in your fluid? when was the last time you checked the fluid before the big bang? i dont expect my trans to last long after i hit it with the new motor so i know a rebuild will happen sooner or later. Edited February 19, 2007 by 04CHASE (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 (edited) wow that sucks P , i guess thats why they are no longer sponsers for the site. the weird thing is after i adjusted the amount i let my converter slip i never get the p0757 code any more. but i have swapped out the solenoid a few times befroe and it came back. i do know i do have the hardened input drum and all but i have my pan dropped and check everything i can very often. did you find anythign in your fluid? when was the last time you checked the fluid before the big bang? i dont expect my trans to last long after i hit it with the new motor so i know a rebuild will happen sooner or later. Yeah - this is important and I got so wrapped up in my soap opera I strayed from what mattered - sorry my bad, let me finish: I never saw any evidence in the pan over the last 18-months. I just did an entire ATF purge & refill & new filter one month ago, the old fluid was not burnt and looked fine enough. Today for education's sake we cut open the filter housing and removed the cloth, unfolded it on the shop bench and 'rinsed' it with WD40, the solvent washed a bunch of debris onto the table including very tiny shards of steel & aluminum, & the fiber was filled with discolored fluid (microscopic burnt clutch dust). So evidence suggests that the foreign clutch debris was being filtered out effectively by the element, HOWEVER what I did not realize is that the filter can be mentally seen as either the first stop on the way to the pump -or- the last stop after the fluid has circulated through the system once, bottom line being that the two tiny bleed orifices in the huge 2nd apply piston were still clogged even though the ATF looked fine enough and did not smell bad (to me anyway). Now that I look back, there were subtle signs - the P0757 was one of them, but I only got 2 of them in the first year then in this last few months more frequently... Also, my tranny temps have crept up about 15-20 degrees over the first 12-months, still they've been in the 150-170 range and that's not boiling by any means but I wrote it off as the in-line thermostat doing it's job to regulate the ATF at 170-ish degrees. I suspected that 2nd gear was not grabbing as hard as it used to, but I just thought that I was immaginng things. Fact is that yes, the shift has softened from hard to kinda-hard over the 18-months. Another thing that surprised me today was a comment my friend made, he said "ah you've got the good 4th servo, I bet that thing grabs 4th gear really hard" and no the tranny has not since day #1, 4th engagement feels no different that OEM 4th engagement so I wonder now if it has ever worked right? I dunno... I was impressed, until a couple days ago I thought the tranny was running great, I had no idea the friction material was as bad as we discovered. Shows what I know! I think I'm going to start examining tranny filters... Mr. P. Edited February 19, 2007 by misterp (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04CHASE Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 ill definatly change my filter next time im in there. is your converter still usable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 ill definatly change my filter next time im in there. is your converter still usable?We decided yes, judging by the fluid poured out of it - it was very clean, clear of contaminants. Thank god, that was an expensive piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 ...i do know i do have the hardened input drum ...I looked into this for a moment, I cannot find such an item. What I have found at PATC is a hardened shaft & a stock input drum that is heated then xrayed and flux tested (?) for flaws, i.e. a 'perfect' input drum. I have another question - is the Beast shell heat treated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04CHASE Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 (edited) ...i do know i do have the hardened input drum ...I looked into this for a moment, I cannot find such an item. What I have found at PATC is a hardened shaft & a stock input drum that is heated then xrayed and flux tested (?) for flaws, i.e. a 'perfect' input drum. I have another question - is the Beast shell heat treated? thats what im speakign of"the beast shell" but looking for info on it , is the piece that you found your hairline crack in ? link to pics here is a good site for 4l60 parts and info http://www.4l60-e.com/ Edited February 19, 2007 by 04CHASE (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r8rs4lf Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 I have a question, not really pertaining to the tranny, but why didn't you use the local guy in the first place P? Sucks that happened especially considering that you didn't get the parts you asked and paid for. I guess some people just don't give a s*ht and want to take advantage of other people. Keep us updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black2003SS Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Since I am in the market for a new trans, could you shed some light on who it is? Was this an FLT as it sounds like you and chase got them fromt he same place apparently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimsoftball Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Not liking the sounds of this thread. I have been having some similar issues with my trans. I also have a "bulletproof" build from a certain San Antonio trans builder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drako Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 This is kinda bringing me down, it sucks that you have gone through this P and I hope this is the last time you go through something like this; good luck And I have been saving for a beefed up tranny, its so hard to find competent tranny people since our transmissions are so weak.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holty Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Since I am in the market for a new trans, could you shed some light on who it is? Was this an FLT as it sounds like you and chase got them fromt he same place apparently? If i remember correctly, i belive P has a JAG Performance Tranny and i believe they are no longer in business. They used to be a site sponsor here also. P, i'm sorry to hear about your loss. I'm sure my completely stock (minus shift kit, servos, converter) tranny is also a ticking timebomb, luckily no codes to speak of yet. I think thats another reason why i tend to "baby" my truck more and more lately. I can see this problem in my near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowtie70SS Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Man that sucks!! Well now that you have torn down a automatic do you think a built 4L65E is worth $2500? I doubt it. It is kind of upsetting and yes I have been down the same road. Good luck with it! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.