Gm Worker Strike

[BOB47]

Then great...lets give it to the mexicans and indians to do cheaper...because the reality is that if thats all you can do as a skill, have you seen what non-union unskilled labor makes for the same job? The wage gap is HUGE!. A gm assembler makes $25/hr and non-union...say at an appliance factory makes $13/hr...The point Bob is that if GM ever breaks the union or sends your job overseas, you will be making $13/hr so it would behoove you and the UAW to cooperate and not make demands for pay that isnt deserving of it. And honestly Bob, I know nothing about you personally, but I do know alot of people in the UAW and their skill set would barely get them a job at Mcdonalds drive thru window after 20yrs putting a few bolts together...the labor is not worth the money being paid for it and it shows...Why do you think Toyota is making so much money? Why do you think they are selling more cars? Because they pay labor for what it is worth and their quality doesn't suffer anymore than GM or UAW...think about.

 

Can't argue the skill sets with you. A semi-intelligent monkey could do most of the jobs. (and he'd be happier too!) The point you're not getting is that if you look at anywhere in the world where they use non-union workers the conditions and pay are disgusting. I guarantee you that without unions we will go back to that. The guy working for $13 an hour is only making that because of the unions making companies pay what they do.

 

As I said, the unions have gotten too strong and compromise is called for. Workers that don't work for a living should be fired, union or not. Using 3 people to clean something off the floor is stupid. Playing poker all day is ridiculous. Reform the union. Don't get rid of it entirely.

 

Toyota is selling more cars because the auto companies in the U.S. never had any competition for years and they engineered and built cars crappy. You may not be old enough to remember"planned obselescence". The Big 3 practiced this for years. Cars were designed to last approx 3 years. This in turn would make the consumer buy a new one sooner. (Yes, this concept is documented reality) That and the fuel crisis of the 70's is what opened the door to all imports. People still think a Toyota or whatever is better built than a domestic car, so that what they buy. True or not.

 

The unions definately should work with the automakers to make a better car and workplace for everybody. As I said before, refom the union, doin't bust it or we'll all be deep!!

[KissMySilvSS]

I swear some people in the UAW just have no damn clue what the real world is like outside of these union plants, but pretty soon when they are selling off their homes and middle class lives because they went from 50+ a year to about 20-25 they will be wishing they compromised to keep their jobs! Gm is just looking to survive and they can not be paying these wages and retirement benefits and remain competitive with the competition that simply have non of these cost!

 

What's worse gm pulling out of this country and taking hundreds of thousands of jobs with it because the unions wont budge or compromising to keep jobs here for people and making a little less? You make it sound like since it is mind numbing and boring that it should be high paying welcome to the real world were most factory jobs are this way and by the way pay 1/3 of what you make, and they don't care if you hate it because their will be hundreds of others willing to take your spot if you quit.

 

Times have changed and it's too bad that union members do not see this, i think keeping their jobs intact rather then losing them trying to prove a point that frankly the rest of america will not care about is beyond me. Also funny how unions have tried to inject themselves into the toyota plants but their workers want no part of what they have to offer!

 

 

Union wages, retirement benefits, and healthcare coverage are the reason why your new Chevy's prices are so high and why we are slipping behind Toyota. Think about it. I believe it is nearly 40% of the cost of a new GM vehicle is labor wages, healthcare, and retirement. Labor unions are their own worst enemy, and if they keep dicking around GM will just pay out the ass and replace all the jobs into non-union.

[BOB47]

Make sure this doesn't turn ugly guys ... talking and debating is one thing ... just remember it's not that big of a deal ... and don't let this get nasty.

 

Won't turn ugly on my part. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I'm just stating mine. I don't expect to change anybodys mind just as I don't expect anyone to change mind.

 

My final thought on the subject---I don't remember who said but "If we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it."

 

BTW--I haven't been in a union for over 20 years.

[Black2003SS]

No uglieness here either. Like I said, I dont know anyone personally on this website or how hard they work for what they have etc. For all I know Bob could a highly skilled tradesmen who could get a good paying job whether GM went belly up or not.

 

I dont know if many know about the Delphi event or not, but being in finance, I had several clients who worked for Delphi. When Delphi split from GM and was forced to file bankruptcy from building inferior products and GM going elsewhere for systems engineering and products, they cut wages in half for most of their union workers because thats all they could afford to pay. Workers were living beyond their means and it hurt alot of them. It was all Delphi and GM could do to keep pensions and benefits in place that were already promised. I dont recall the final outcome/court rulings, I would have to look it up. If unions aren't careful (read, as its not too late...yet), GM could end up like Delphi, which in that event, would either bring disaster for GM or cause the Fed Government to intervine. Either case would be detrimental to the financial well being of all GM employess, both union and non-union.

[misterp]

Good subject for discussion.

 

Now y'all know I'm a career programmer, I make no bones that I have made a good living out of replacing people with automated systems. When I began my current job a few years ago the USTRC had 35-40 "regular staff" employees, today we have 12. You can personally thank me, yes I am the antichrist, it's what I do. Cut away the non-productive employees and replace them with improved processes, a win-win as the company is a leaner, meaner business with the best product ever, the highest number of customers ever, and the remaining staff are highly qualified and better paid than ever. The money "saved" is redirected into furthering business development.

 

I am convinced from my own experience that the unions are fighting a loosing battle; it may not be feasible at this point in history, it may take 20 years, or 100 years but the day is coming when assembly plants will be almost entirely automated and manned by only a few hundred professional engineers. The day will come when exotic composites and processes allow a single robotic line to pop-out anything from a sub-compact to a full-size vehicle on an item-by-item basis. And if you don't think there are industry geniouses engineering the worker out of the equation I can assure you that you're dead wrong.

 

It's already happening; larger assemblies are being subcontracted, the employes are being let go and those jobs are going to smaller and smaller subcontractors where the union way of going is less of an influence.

 

To my way of thinking it's all about efficiency - consumers have shown over the last 100-years that they refuse to pay for inefficiency, not only in America but nowhere in the world will anyone pay $$$ for a "hand built" car; Even Mercedes is having to adjust to that reality. And the consumer market is not going to pay for 3 guys standing around wondering who is going to mop up a mess on the floor.

 

So I guess what I am saying is that reality dictates if an unskilled union worker wants a better life then they better do what the rest of us do and get educated/skilled.

 

Mr. P.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Mr. P. (see edit history)

[Black2003SS]

larger assemblies are being subcontracted, the employes are being let go and those jobs are going to smaller and smaller subcontractors where the union way of going is less of an influence.

 

Hence the Tier I, II, and III suppliers...Automakers fully intend to be a "final assembly only" production. entire brake systems are shipped from suppliers, rotor to rotor with axels and all in between. Eventually, even engines will be outsourced, as well as transmissions.

[misterp]

Hence the Tier I, II, and III suppliers...Automakers fully intend to be a "final assembly only" production. entire brake systems are shipped from suppliers, rotor to rotor with axels and all in between. Eventually, even engines will be outsourced, as well as transmissions.

I agree, and the reason why is because the Board of Directors & public investors in these companies will vote changes in to minimize actual operating expenses.

 

I understand that is not where we are today, but the unions have left the perception (right or not) that they are a major reason for the financial problems in the industry. And perception is reality. Another saying down to the home: "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered" and the unions are about to be gutted because public impression now is they've crossed that line.

 

Mr. P.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Mr. P. (see edit history)

[Krambo]

I currently manage a Union plant.

 

I have managed 4 non-union plants.

 

 

(I am ready for the flack guys ) A union now-a-days is nothing more than organized extortion geared for the union members personal benefit at the expense of the company's growth. A company that has the unfortunate circumstance of having a union is limping to the finish line when they could have already won the race. Granted there are some unions that operate in a manner that supports a process improvement environment (lean manufacturing / Six - Sigma) however my personal opinion is that they do nothing but make a company bleed and protect the incompetent.

 

I negotiated the collective barganing agreement currently in place and have enforced it to the "T" only to have "employees" dance in the gray areas for the only purpose of making their job less work and higher pay. I have grievances against me for the dumbest reasons all of which will be dropped. Which is fine however all the time I put into dealing with them, I could have been adding value to my company and the shareholders.

 

When I own my own company, it will be union NO. Unions are not needed in today's work environment. There are many laws that protect the worker far beyond the CBA ever could that didn't exist 50 years ago. The trend in my industry is smaller private companies rather than the large union based conglomerates and I applaud this movement for the growth of U.S. companies.

 

My father and grandfather were both shop stewards in a large union. I am not biased... although holiday gatherings were eventful before he passed.

[Black2003SS]

Delphi story...

 

GM be warned...unskilled labor beware...

 

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/busines...phi-unions.html

 

1:34 p.m. June 27, 2007

 

DETROIT – Thousands of Delphi Corp. workers at 17 facilities across the country prepared Wednesday to cast ballots on a four-year contract agreement that would cut wages for older workers but preserve jobs for many members of the United Auto Workers.

Voting at some local union halls starts at 11 p.m. Wednesday and lasts for 24 hours, while others begin casting ballots Thursday morning. Some won't end balloting until Friday morning. The UAW expects to have totals sometime Friday.

 

 

The tentative agreement, signed last week after two years of often bitter negotiations involving the UAW, Delphi and its former parent, General Motors Corp., lowers wages for many longtime workers from about $27 per hour to a pay scale for all workers that runs between $14 and $18.50.

 

 

Analysts have said the deal likely will become the pattern for other unions representing workers at struggling Delphi, which was GM's parts-making operation until it was spun off as a separate company in 1999. It also could set wages in the rest of the domestic parts industry and perhaps affect national contract talks later this summer between the UAW and GM, Ford Motor Co. and DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group.

 

Harley Shaiken, a professor at the University of California-Berkeley specializing in labor issues, said the Delphi agreement is likely to pass because younger workers whose jobs were protected outnumber the older workers whose wages were cut.

 

“It's always difficult to predict, but in this case the agreement is so much better than the initial offer that I think most Delphi workers will go for it even with some enthusiasm, hoping they can build on it for the future,” Shaiken said.

 

Troy-based Delphi offered unions a base wage of $9 an hour shortly after it filed for bankruptcy protection in October 2005.

 

In the pact negotiated with Delphi and GM, the UAW managed to keep three more plants open than Delphi had initially proposed. It also got a series of options for longtime workers that include a $35,000 annual payment for three years to production workers whose wages will be cut. Skilled trade wages will remain unchanged under the pact.

 

On Monday, most newer workers interviewed near the Flint East plant after being briefed on the agreement were thrilled. The pact preserves their jobs making instrument clusters, fuel pumps and other parts until at least 2015, with GM or a third party it designates agreeing to operate the plant.

 

Some older workers were wary. Others said they would vote for it because the deal has so many protections, buyouts and early retirement opportunities for them.

 

Across Delphi, only 4,000 of the company's 17,000 UAW workers are at the higher pay scale, their ranks decimated by early retirement and buyout packages offered last year by GM and Delphi.

 

Delphi has a total of 20,000 production workers nationwide, with about 3,000 represented by other unions.

 

GM, which was involved in the talks because it is on the hook for an estimated $7 billion in liabilities for Delphi pension and retiree health care expenses, likely will subsidize the older workers' wages and pay for some of the exit packages.

 

Delphi and a spokesman at the UAW's Detroit headquarters have declined comment on the pact.

 

The agreement would leave Delphi operating four UAW plants: Grand Rapids; Kokomo, Ind.; Lockport, N.Y.; and Rochester, N.Y. GM or a third party would run the Flint East plant, Saginaw Chassis and the Needmore Road plant in Dayton, Ohio.

 

Delphi plans to sell its Saginaw Steering plant and others in Adrian; Sandusky, Ohio; and Cottondale, Ala. It would close or consolidate into other facilities plants in Coopersville; Columbus, Ohio; two in Milwaukee; Anderson, Ind.; and Wichita Falls, Texas.

 

GM would be able to unload significant liabilities in the agreement, and its stock price rose after the pact was made public.

 

GM shares rose $1.06, or 2.9 percent, to $37.41 on Wednesday after trading briefly at a 52-week high of $37.41.

[CoolBlueSS]

Hence the Tier I, II, and III suppliers...Automakers fully intend to be a "final assembly only" production. entire brake systems are shipped from suppliers, rotor to rotor with axels and all in between. Eventually, even engines will be outsourced, as well as transmissions.

Yep. The assemblies are sent to the assembly plant for final assembly. (sounds redundant, I know ) Everthing is scheduled as far as color, options, ect, that are to be assembled on a given day. All the workers do is snap, ans bolt it together. Everything is pre built, pre painted, and pre loaded. No real "skill" involved.

[r8rs4lf]

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH....................

 

Another Union VS. Non Union debate..................................

 

Doesn't it get old???????

 

I bet everyone who has bitched about what Union workers make would take that position in a heartbeat!

 

Bottom line for this topic is that ALL the US companies who make vehicles, MAKE SH*T compared to these overseas companies like Toyota, Nissan, etc., etc. It has nothing to do with what wages are being paid. Maybe if these same companies who are trying to cut wages and benefits cared about their employees, theses same employees would give a sh*t about the company. It's a two way street.

Edited September 24, 2007 by r8rs4lf (see edit history)

[gixxerrider]

I dont have a union. How ever I am military.

[stevebbb]

Well, isn't this interesting. Those darn overpaid union members.

Edited September 24, 2007 by stevebbb (see edit history)

[misterp]

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH....................

 

Another Union VS. Non Union debate..................................

 

Doesn't it get old???????

 

I bet everyone who has bitched about what Union workers make would take that position in a heartbeat!

 

Bottom line for this topic is that ALL the US companies who make vehicles, MAKE SH*T compared to these overseas companies like Toyota, Nissan, etc., etc. It has nothing to do with what wages are being paid. Maybe if these same companies who are trying to cut wages and benefits cared about their employees, theses same employees would give a sh*t about the company. It's a two way street.

Agree - example = "The Toyota Way".

 

Well, isn't this interesting. Those darn overpaid union members.

I'm not at all just blindly siding with the executives - there's a lot of red paint on both sides of this issue. I cannot tell you how many incompetent upper management folks I have run across in my career...

[Krambo]

Agree - example = "The Toyota Way".

 

Steve, are you familiar with Six Sigma methodology? Kind of seems that way...

 

I have studied SS and Lean principles for about a decade. This is something that Toyota "understands" and is a MAJOR reason that they have been so successful.