Making Progress

[detjoe]

OK, fist I am at work, so I do not have any of my HPT files to load. But I will post them later if needed.

I was hesitant to try to start tuning last summer when out temps shoot up and then the winter was no good...so this spring I have had the time and have started

 

and for anyone who is thinking about tuning when you get to a point in the learning curve, stuff starts to make SO much more since...it is FUN

 

So I begin by dialing in my main VE. I am using a wirite up from HPT. Basically turning off some of the fueling adders (PE) and forcing the timing table to be the same...and more stuff

 

Now after 7 sessions of logging in SD mode, I have a VE table I am happy with, up to 4000RPMS

 

Now here is where I get stuck. I want to dial in the MAF next, I want to have a MAF tune for driving and a SD tune for the track.

 

I am using a wideband and histogram #7 VE AFR% Error

 

Do I need to do more SD loggin to change the VE from 4000 RPM's and UP?

Do I reenable my PE before I do this?

 

Do I use the same histogram for MAF tuning as VE tunging?

Do I diable the PE mode to tune the MAF?

 

I know this post is scattered but Like I said some of this stuff is making alot of since and I find alot of my own awnsers just thinking about it for a while, but I need to keep moving forward and get a new time for this set-up (frinday TNT BABY!)

 

I have a tune ready as Kevin's MAF posts says, but it is my orginal SD loggin tune (PE off, DFCO off, MAF Failed, ...) and I know looking thru a compare file I could figure out want should get changed back...just easier to ask

 

dial VE

Dial MAF

Set PE

Check PE with WB

Add timing till knock

Idle/fine tuning

 

does the above seem like a good method? I have met my goal of beating a stock radix truck(13.6 was my bench mark) I have new number I would like to hit before I change anything else.

TIA:peelout:

[chpspecial]

OK, fist I am at work, so I do not have any of my HPT files to load. But I will post them later if needed.

I was hesitant to try to start tuning last summer when out temps shoot up and then the winter was no good...so this spring I have had the time and have started

 

and for anyone who is thinking about tuning when you get to a point in the learning curve, stuff starts to make SO much more since...it is FUN

 

So I begin by dialing in my main VE. I am using a wirite up from HPT. Basically turning off some of the fueling adders (PE) and forcing the timing table to be the same...and more stuff

 

Now after 7 sessions of logging in SD mode, I have a VE table I am happy with, up to 4000RPMS

 

Now here is where I get stuck. I want to dial in the MAF next, I want to have a MAF tune for driving and a SD tune for the track.

 

I am using a wideband and histogram #7 VE AFR% Error

 

Do I need to do more SD loggin to change the VE from 4000 RPM's and UP? Yes, the entire VE table needs to be spot on. Otherwise once you pass 4000 rpm, your MAF values will be skewed and not proper. This will also give you havoc trying to hit a target AFR

Do I reenable my PE before I do this? No, do it the same as your VE table

 

Do I use the same histogram for MAF tuning as VE tunging? No, there should be another histogram like the one for VE tuning, but will be labeled MAF. The table will just be a one column histogram with Hz on one end value on the other.

Do I diable the PE mode to tune the MAF? Do the same as VE tuning.

 

I know this post is scattered but Like I said some of this stuff is making alot of since and I find alot of my own awnsers just thinking about it for a while, but I need to keep moving forward and get a new time for this set-up (frinday TNT BABY!)

 

I have a tune ready as Kevin's MAF posts says, but it is my orginal SD loggin tune (PE off, DFCO off, MAF Failed, ...) and I know looking thru a compare file I could figure out want should get changed back...just easier to ask

 

dial VE Yes, the entire VE table

Dial MAF Only after the VE table is done

Set PE If your VE table is good, and your MAF is good, then your PE should be as commanded.

Check PE with WB See above

Add timing till knock Timing is an issue. At part throttle and cruise speed, I set the timing value to where vacuum is the greatest. At this point, it is where the most power is being made and where you are the most efficient. At WOT, you need a dyno to verify the power vs. timing. It is possible on Gen III v8 to add timing to ridiculous levels and not see KR, but will definitely see a decrease in power. There is a guy on PT, who tried that method and had timing up to 40* with no know, but ended up loosing a rod.

Idle/fine tuning I would do this before Timing.

 

does the above seem like a good method? I have met my goal of beating a stock radix truck(13.6 was my bench mark) I have new number I would like to hit before I change anything else.

TIA:peelout:

 

Happy tuning

Edited June 23, 2011 by chpspecial (see edit history)

[shadowsniper3006]

I guess i would start at idle tuning. I would start by making sure the base air matched the dynamic airflow at idle at the coolant temps you can get to. Once your base air matches your dynamic airflow i would adjust the TB scaler until your short term idle trims are very close to zero. Changes in the base air will effect your ve table at idle so thats why i would start there.

 

Then what i did was make a histogram to compare my wideband setting to my target AFR and tell me what percent i need to multiply the VE table by. When logging i pick roads that i know will hit the area's i need. Sometimes i will use the live tables to command third gear only and get the kpa values i need or i will command 4th gear and lock up to get some of the high and low cruising kpa values, or third gear and lock up only. After driving i just multiply the ve table by the value my histogram says.

 

I always set PE at 1.172 at leave it on. Otherwise if you go WOT with out PE you may be at 14.68:1 while running. With a value of 1.172 in the whole table i know i need to be at 12.52 AFR while making the run. If i can hit 12.52 on the head while at WOT and in PE mode, i know what ever i put in the PE table will be correct for AFR. If you where to zero this out after tuning it, it would be your stoich ratio of 14.68(if your running E10 your stoich ratio might be 14.2 but your wide band still sees stoich at 14.68...so on e10 14.2=14.68 on the wideband).

 

I do tune WOT on the street but only a couple of logs to get it in the ball park, then i go to the dyno to do it safely and with no tickets.

 

I have left cruising timing to zippy so far so I'm no help there. For WOT timing, like was said, i do it on the dyno so i can see where the point of no positive return is. On my truck i hit 33 degrees and made no more power but didn't have KR either, so 33 is where i run in the higher rpm. Timing through the dyno pull was the same testing, add timing until i saw KR or no improvement.

 

I took me a while to figure out that i was always locking the converter on the dyno, but i never lock the converter on the track. So tune as you would be racing, then lock the converter to put down the larger number for bragging.

 

 

This is how i have been taught but also in my own ways. Some of my ways may be wrong so anyone correct me if they see something they do different.

 

I am no help on a MAF tuning as i have never needed it. Just wondering though Joe, why tune the MAF? Why not just run a SD tune?

Edited June 24, 2011 by shadowsniper3006 (see edit history)

[detjoe]

I guess i would start at idle tuning. I would start by making sure the base air matched the dynamic airflow at idle at the coolant temps you can get to. Once your base air matches your dynamic airflow i would adjust the TB scaler until your short term idle trims are very close to zero. Changes in the base air will effect your ve table at idle so thats why i would start there.SO I can Log and see How much air is required at a variety of temps, then add that to the tune, then tune the VE? Why Should the TB sclar change? I though it should match the unit you have (Mine is a truck 87mm)

 

Then what i did was make a histogram to compare my wideband setting to my target AFR and tell me what percent i need to multiply the VE table by. When logging i pick roads that i know will hit the area's i need. Sometimes i will use the live tables to command third gear only and get the kpa values i need or i will command 4th gear and lock up to get some of the high and low cruising kpa values, or third gear and lock up only. After driving i just multiply the ve table by the value my histogram says. I am good with this part. I have done a few 30 min Logs, and I kept the truck in 3rd, so I could re-tune the VE in no time. But do I go past 4000 rpms and still tune for stoich? its just not WOT(100%TPS) so I am safe?? Tune too 6k and then re-enable PE when I am all done.

 

I always set PE at 1.172 at leave it on. Otherwise if you go WOT with out PE you may be at 14.68:1 while running. With a value of 1.172 in the whole table i know i need to be at 12.52 AFR while making the run. If i can hit 12.52 on the head while at WOT and in PE mode, i know what ever i put in the PE table will be correct for AFR. If you where to zero this out after tuning it, it would be your stoich ratio of 14.68(if your running E10 your stoich ratio might be 14.2 but your wide band still sees stoich at 14.68...so on e10 14.2=14.68 on the wideband).

 

I do tune WOT on the street but only a couple of logs to get it in the ball park, then i go to the dyno to do it safely and with no tickets.

 

I have left cruising timing to zippy so far so I'm no help there. For WOT timing, like was said, i do it on the dyno so i can see where the point of no positive return is. On my truck i hit 33 degrees and made no more power but didn't have KR either, so 33 is where i run in the higher rpm. Timing through the dyno pull was the same testing, add timing until i saw KR or no improvement.

 

I took me a while to figure out that i was always locking the converter on the dyno, but i never lock the converter on the track. So tune as you would be racing, then lock the converter to put down the larger number for bragging.

 

 

This is how i have been taught but also in my own ways. Some of my ways may be wrong so anyone correct me if they see something they do different.

 

I am no help on a MAF tuning as i have never needed it. Just wondering though Joe, why tune the MAF? Why not just run a SD tune?

 

thanks guys. I did not make the TnT I have more work to do:)

[shadowsniper3006]

If I'm not mistaken the TB scaler is the amount of area the air can pass through while you are at idle. If your TB is at the large end or small end of the tolerance it can change, if your blade is a little big or small it can change, i think if your blade is rotated a little different(like 8% tps vs 10%tps at idle) this may also change this number. I hope I'm expaining it right.... But at any rate, if your base air matches the dynamic air then you have that correct. With that correct if you still see idle trims are off then the motor is getting more or less air through the TB then it thinks so changing the TB scaler corrects this so the truck knows its getting the right amount of air through the gap between the bore and blade.

 

Boy zippy explains this stuff better.....

 

 

If you can go past 5000 at part throttle then tune it. Your 90 and up kpa areas are going to be your WOT areas, but you still need to hit everything below that if you can safely do it on the street. When in PE, like 98% tps, then the higher kpa cells can be tuned for you pe ratio, I use 12.52 as an AFR to hit.

Edited June 25, 2011 by shadowsniper3006 (see edit history)

[detjoe]

I am going to use an idle config I found that has a histogram for the desired airflow. I am going to start with in Gear, and let it come upto temp and then add those values into the tune. then do a batch of SD VE logging to see if any error comes up.

[detjoe]

so I ran a warm up idle config in gear last night and a P/N one this morning and according to HPT I needed more air

 

So I did those two logs from cold and added the values to the table, and then just interpolated the very cold and very hot values. I have not driven it much, but it did seem better when at a stop sign, no bucking. Need to drive more and see, and do both Idle logs again.

 

I took a drive after I changed them and my trims were not too bad, still diailing them in and trying to get some higher RPM's

 

I think I am ready to reenable the PE and do some WOT logs, just need to read some more

 

I think my VE was 20% off(-20 so lean?) when I first started SD tuning it, so I am very happy with what my data says is the truck running better, and with the RAF changed I know I will feel it better SOTP on my daily driving.

[detjoe]

adding air has helped the surging at a stop. I bet it could use a little more, but will revisit it later.

 

I looked thru my tune and I think PE is on, at 90%TPS and all the delays are zero'd, so I figured I would try to roll into that throttle position on some logging today...and man the truck seems alot faster

was able to hit the floor for a brief second and the AFR did goto (what looked like) the PE value. I have it set flat across like you said Brad.

 

I am going to look at the log some more, I thought I saw some knock, but the scanner did not show it, but the gauge screen changed color but not to red??

 

I am feeling real good about getting somewhere with this

[shadowsniper3006]

feeling the truck come alive is the best part.....

 

I don't much. but if i can help in anyway, shoot me an email

Edited June 29, 2011 by shadowsniper3006 (see edit history)

[detjoe]

I am still waking up but I feel like there is somethinng in one of the transition areas that is causing some trouble. like going from moving to stopped, I was getting more surging last night, AFTER I though I fixed the base air

 

The Log did show a few degrees of knock and a spot with like 7 degrees of it, but that seemed like it was at the 4000K transitions area of my log. I have a stretch of highway that is between the major highways that I can get a pretty good WOT blast.

[shadowsniper3006]

oh god....your describing the exact thing that I've been chasing on WIjoes truck for 6 weekends......but his is horrible to the point of almost not drivable.

 

Are you still running the stock idle timing? and stock underspeed and overspeed tables? What i found that started to help was the throttle cracker. I believe this to be a correct explanation, when you let off the gas the throttle blade goes to it's home position after the delay and decay are over with, but the throttle cracker table gives the blade a little more air at a given MPH. So when your going down the track at 106 mph and let off the gas, this doesn't let the throttle blade just smack shut and kill the motor, it gives it just enough air to still idle and maintain.

 

Again this is my understanding, and if i've said that wrong, i hope to be corrected.

[detjoe]

oh god....your describing the exact thing that I've been chasing on WIjoes truck for 6 weekends......but his is horrible to the point of almost not drivable.

 

Are you still running the stock idle timing? YESand stock underspeed and overspeed tables? YES What i found that started to help was the throttle cracker. I believe this to be a correct explanation, when you let off the gas the throttle blade goes to it's home position after the delay and decay are over with, but the throttle cracker table gives the blade a little more air at a given MPH. So when your going down the track at 106 mph and let off the gas, this doesn't let the throttle blade just smack shut and kill the motor, it gives it just enough air to still idle and maintain.

 

Again this is my understanding, and if i've said that wrong, i hope to be corrected.

 

What about the rolling idle? my table is zero'd out, what if I while rolling the Idle should be what my target idle is maybe + a few RPM's? But there is 'rolling idle' settings too, enable/disable speed?

 

I need to take a nap so I can stay up a bit later and call in tech support

 

What about coping my high octane table to my base idle table? it looks the same at the low airmass/RPM's so I would guess it would not change anything.

 

 

my overspeed is taking away between 3 and 5 (@ 50 and 100RPMS over)

my underspeed is adding 7 and 5.5 (@ -100 and -50)

 

So If I am stopped, no speed its all idle settings? and if the delta between the desired RPM and the actual RPM is between 50 and 100 RPM's off it will pull 5 degrees of timing.

 

I like the timing/spark solutions as I can tell its adjusting(surging) so fast that it must be a spark correction.

 

Now devloping a method to test each solution to find the best will take some time/logging...and I probably need to log some different parameters.

 

cheers

[detjoe]

I read that you cannot do idle tuning in SD? So if I used my SD tune to log those values, then they are not correct with tthe trims off??

[shadowsniper3006]

that would be news to me, but i don't buy it.

[detjoe]

its only at 0mph. so I am searching thru idle stuff. still doing it pretty bad, but I cant tie it to any condition but maybe temp, so @ 180ECT's its not happy but at 190 its cool??

 

With that Brad I am happy with the direction my idle logs went, just need more. Maybe follower? Idle timing?