marc_w Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I thought I had a real nice strong HO timing table in place, but I've been logging a lot of higher-load knock these last few days. I'm going to rework it again. Would anyone mind posting their HO timing table so that I can take a look and get a feel as to what the curve looks like, where you've bumped up timing, and how quick you see max timing when WOT...? I'm just looking for a "cleaner" baseline to work with, or something to model after. I'm not sure if I should keep the general "hump" to to the curve, or point it straight across after 3,000rpm or so... I've also come across advise like this. When I get knock at a WOT run, it will 'usually' start around 3,600-4,000 and continues up the RPM's. If I don't run into it, it's fine up until the 5,900rpm shift. The trail and error method here is tedious. I don't like doing a whole lot of raggin' on my truck and attracting attention on the street. THANKS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I thought I had a real nice strong HO timing table in place, but I've been logging a lot of higher-load knock these last few days. I'm going to rework it again. Would anyone mind posting their HO timing table so that I can take a look and get a feel as to what the curve looks like, where you've bumped up timing, and how quick you see max timing when WOT...? I'm just looking for a "cleaner" baseline to work with, or something to model after. I'm not sure if I should keep the general "hump" to to the curve, or point it straight across after 3,000rpm or so... I've also come across advise like this. When I get knock at a WOT run, it will 'usually' start around 3,600-4,000 and continues up the RPM's. If I don't run into it, it's fine up until the 5,900rpm shift. The trail and error method here is tedious. I don't like doing a whole lot of raggin' on my truck and attracting attention on the street. THANKS! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Marc, is your knock related to down-shifting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezel Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I agree about the excessive ragging to get the tune dialed in. I have pretty much stopped doing this. I'm too lazy to post a screen shot right now, but here's my input... My current timing table (stock cam) runs from around 25* at 3200 up to 28* at 5600+ with no dips. I think I could run a little higher with a dip, but not messing with it for now. For your cammed setup, I'd suggest starting at 26-27* (3200) and ramping up to 29-30* at 5600+ with a big dip at peak torque like NoGo suggests. Maybe dip it down to 24-25* at 4400 and 4800 and smooth the next lower and higher points back into the base ramp of the curve. Then, with a few test runs, you might be able to bring the dip back up before seeing the KR. I have seen cammed engines running 32* timing - but I wouldn't recommend that high. Also, some web info suggests that there is no significant gain above ~30*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezel Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 And, TurbochargedBerserker has a good point. Downshifting still gives me the occasional KR blip. But runs from a dead stop are no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiel Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 looking at it starting at 10 (400rpm) till 15 at 800 rpm, than up to 25 at 1400 rpm and then up to 30 at 2400 then somewath strait . this is the middle 2d-line.0.48g/cyl. hope this will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSminneapolis Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 And, TurbochargedBerserker has a good point. Downshifting still gives me the occasional KR blip. But runs from a dead stop are no problem. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> i see the same problem...from a dead stop everything runs fine...but when downshifting i get KR. i have manually shifted into 3rd before punching it and that does help...but changing timing in those areas has no effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_w Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Thanks a lot, guys... I have enough info to build a few different tables. I'll get some screenshots up to show everyone. I currently have three here... Two of mine, one of JimmyBlue's (from HPT forum, and LS1tech). Eric - I don't typically get KR on downshifts... I do seem to get it on the TCC unlock. I used to get it religiously at the stock TCC unlock points around 1,100rpm... I bumped them up into the 45mph, 1,500rpm range which fixed that pretty well. I have a hunch that I "might" be seeing it again on agressive kick-downs - but I can't say for sure... I'll have to set up a logging session. Deezel: WOW! It seems like I'm having a hard time pushing 26* at times now, but it might be because I'm not dipping the timing. With my current (mentioned) table, I'm pretty much pulling the timing straight across the table from the lower 3K range and up. (Similar to what Chiel mentioned). I'll build one with a dip. JB's table I mentioned here seems to work in steps... It's interesting looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_w Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Here is the kind of KR I'm trying to fight. As you can (hopefully) see, I rolled into the throttle from a lower RPM/speed in 1st. The numbers represent the very start of the KR you see here. My KR tables were all stock for this. I've since modded them to attack less agressively and recover quickly. I have to wonder if I'm chasing my tail with the timing table - meaning, I'm only looking at 3-4 actualy "pings" in the motor. I got a lot of testing to do...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezel Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Oh, yeah. Couple more things... You don't have a UD pulley do you? What are the O2s at the second gear ping around 4400? I have disabled my EQ ratio vs. rpm timing modifier by zeroing that table. This way all my timing tuning is done in the HO table. That roll-in throttle might have something to do with the first ping you got on that run. You were not into PE mode yet, so AFR was still 14.7 (closed loop). You might want to adjust your WOT enable table to enter PE mode earlier above 3000rpms. I'll try to post some screen shots later tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezel Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Ok, heres a couple screen shots. First one showing an EFI log of a WOT run from a stop. pic1 And then a shot of my hi octane table. pic2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_w Posted October 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Good call on the PE / roll-in there... I was looking into that yesterday. I noticed that I have a (built in) PE delay when I'm under 5,500rpm. It 'rolls into' PE at a certain enrichment rate. I'm trying to figure out what I should do with that... It doesn't make any sense to delay PE up to that RPM, especially considering I'd get up there bone-stock, is on the 1-2 shift 5,600. I don't have a UD pulley... The 02's hover around 885-900 throughout second gear, but there are a few dips I just caught that drop to 875. The first second geat "hit" is 890-900, the second is 885-885. I see you're well into the 900's there - I'm thinking I should go up on my PE table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezel Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Ok marc, some of the parameters are described/named differently in HPT, but this should make sense. I have my PE delay set to 0 and PE delay RPM set to 0. I guess if the delay is 0 then the rpm really doesn't matter. There is no enrichment rate in Edit. Also, that is a slightly older log. I was running it kinda rich while playing with the timing. Around 890-900 should be good on the O2s. My wideband says that 890-900 is around AFR of 12.0-12.3. My current O2 readings are 870-890 at WOT. Finally, on the WOT PE enable... I have it set to go into PE mode at 80%tps up to 1600rpm, ramp down to 65%tps at 3000rpm or so, and then down to 45%tps above 4400. This ensures that you are always in enrichment when under load at high rpms. FYI, the stock radix tune sets the PE enable to 40%tps across the board. I tried this and it was too low for my taste. As for my timing suggestions, perhaps you could start with 2* less than suggested and work up. You will definitely notice the difference between 24* and 28* if you can get rid of the KR. Have fun tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurbochargedBerserker Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Good call on the PE / roll-in there... I was looking into that yesterday. I noticed that I have a (built in) PE delay when I'm under 5,500rpm. It 'rolls into' PE at a certain enrichment rate. I'm trying to figure out what I should do with that... It doesn't make any sense to delay PE up to that RPM, especially considering I'd get up there bone-stock, is on the 1-2 shift 5,600. I don't have a UD pulley... The 02's hover around 885-900 throughout second gear, but there are a few dips I just caught that drop to 875. The first second geat "hit" is 890-900, the second is 885-885. I see you're well into the 900's there - I'm thinking I should go up on my PE table. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The enrichment rate, PE Delay, etc., settings in the stock tune are ridiculous. F-body cars have an ER of 1.0!! I currently run 0.6 I think, and set the RPM to 2800 (because I see full boost at 3k -- for you, I'd recommend checking when your cam comes on, and go a few hundred RPM south of that). I shot for 920s on my PE and generally speaking made my PE curve steeper (more PE sooner vs. RPM) I also believe my PE enable is 70% tps for 2400rpms and up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_w Posted October 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Thanks guys... It's sometimes tough working with different 'languages' here. All of my PE stuff is stock, except for the actual "PE Table". Here's what I got for a little laugh. Enable MAP: 55 Enable MAP Hysteresis: 6 (The point at which PE will "pull out"...?) Mode Delay RPM: 5500 Enrichment Rate: 0.0195 PE Enable %TPS Threshold vs RPM: 90% across the board. I'll get this thing more 'sensitized'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezel Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 MAP enable = 15 (f-body style) Hysteresis = 5 (stock, but yours is 6, also stock???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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