Presidential Debate #2

[SSminneapolis]

since you feel this has happened before..and we have created an environment that is supporting bush..then why do you come into these threads? if you know, why bother?

[TBSS]

since you feel this has happened before..and we have created an environment that is supporting bush..then why do you come into these threads? if you know, why bother?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, it's certainly not because I like interacting with you (boring and predictable) or I think I'm going to change your mind (obviously not possible).

 

I'll show you why....this is just one of the PM's I've received, probably from someone who would participate in the discussion if the environment wasn't so hostile (name removed for his safety):

 

Hi there...

 

First off, I just wanted to say I enjoyed the discourse (is this the appropriate word  ) between you and the Bush supporters of the Board (MN C5, Benkey, etc). I chuckled everytime your post reflected a more intelligent, logical, and factual response to their opinionated, stubborn resolve.

 

The reason for my post is my request for the titles of the "Clarke and Oneill" readings that you recommended readers of the posts to check out. If you can message me back with those titles as well as any other books you feel are beneficial to me, I will appreciate it.

 

Thanks, and again great posts!

[SSminneapolis]

thank you Dan Rather. is that a copy of a copy??? democrats..never will to give their sources...

 

i trust that someone did send that to you. and that is great. i am glad there are people that support your point of view.

 

i thought it was kind of funny...

...i chuckled everytime you post reflected a more intelligent, logical, and factual response to their opinionated, stubborn resolve.

so we are opinionated...and stubborn...yet your opinions are not? if anyone is stubborn here i would say it was you nakedAV...you are the one complaining about being ganged up on when you realized this before, yet still chose to try post your opinions...

 

boring and predictable...am i really? sorry about that. i will try to spice things up a bit...

[FwyFlyr]

To Naked AV;

 

I have to say you did a good job in responding to my comments point by point.

 

The sad part is that you did'nt get it. You missed my point. Here's where I could slam you but I won't.

 

Thanks for your comments of concern re: the wife's job. But here's where we differ.

 

My wife did not sit on her can and wait for the gov't to get her a job or retrain her.

She did not play the victim role.

 

I love my country too, and you are out of line to elude that any of us here do not.

 

If GWB asked for a tax increase due to the war effort, I understand. If anyone asked for an increase to support welfare, I would fight it to the end.

 

I would much rather be fighting the terrorists there than here. Make no mistake, and don't forget they came here, more than once.

 

As for our security here, we are busy infighting over privacy issues, profiling, and other similar issues. I travel frequently, and personally witness adults having temper tantrums over having to remove their shoes, belts and jewelry to be screened prior to a domestic flight. And yes, it should be that way on trains, buses and any other public transportation. But it's not due to the above.

 

If we were to attempt to check every container that comes to the U.S. we would create a log jam in commerce. And knowing the way it works it would create a huge oproar because goods are delayed, retailers have no goods to sell, the economy crashes.

 

By and large, most liberals want it both ways. It's like sticking your head in the sand, it'll go away if you ignore it.

 

Kerry says terrorism is a nuisance? Tell that to a victim of 9/11. The difference between 9/11 and Pearl Harbor is that we did'nt have the liberal media broadcasting that we had killed 3 children in an attack. They would have told the other fact, 42 terrorists were killed.

 

As far as oil. You seem to be intelligent in some respects. In case you're not, you need to know that the Saudi's do not set the price of oil. The price is based on supply and demand on a global basis.

 

Bush is not responsible for the fact that your ride gets less than 15 mpg. You bought it. You drive it. But then, So did I, the difference is that I'm not complaining. I'm look'in at 2.50 a gallon and I still buy 93. The only ones who might have an arguement here are those drive cars for their mileage. You're not one of them.

 

As far as Medicare, don't blame this on GWB any more than Kerry. This increase was voted into law years ago. ( by both of them )

 

Thank God for America. We have the right to have these discussions. In other countries in this world, you could be shot for your opinions.

 

Finally, I say to you;

Why don't you start thinking about what's right in this country instead of concentrating on what's wrong.

 

Jesus himself could not please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

[SSminneapolis]

Why don't you start thinking about what's right in this country instead of concentrating on what's wrong.

 

Jesus himself could not please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

to continue on that thought...

 

why do we not hear about all the victories in the middle east...why do we not hear about all the good things in iraq...maybe because the media doesn't want people to know...but they are not biased

 

and how about Tereza's recent comment...

"John will never send a boy or girl in a uniform anywhere in the world because of our need and greed for oil," Teresa Heinz Kerry

she is a real winner...cause that is what it was all about..oil. seriously, what an idiot. but hey i would marry her if i could...billions at my finger tips...

[2drTahoe]

why do we not hear about all the victories in the middle east...why do we not hear about all the good things in iraq...maybe because the media doesn't want people to know...but they are not biased

 

I saw today that Afghanistan had elections today. Both men and women voting. The people were excited. I think that's pretty darn cool.

 

I don't watch too much news. It's generally a crap load of bad news. They are real shock and gore mongers. You want to see some good in the world, watch Extreme Makeover - Home Edition.

[TBSS]

To FwyFlyr:

 

I appreciate your attempts at discussion, which are much better than most here. I'll try to address all the points that you yourself addressed.

 

I never said that your wife sat on her can and played the victim, or even implied it. I really don't understand your lashing out at me over this, it is simply baffling. I genuinely hoped that she had acquired a skill set (through wise decision-making and education) that enabled her to get a job right away. The tough part of a market economy is not knowing what will be in demand as far as labor skills go. It's a crap shoot and a tough one at that. So why and how you got defensive over my comment is a complete mystery to me.

 

Along the same lines, I never said you didn't love your country, or implied it. Again, I don't know why you misunderstood me.....don't you think it's possible for us to both love our country? I certainly do. I believe, like Kerry said, the we have differing ways to attempt to secure it and make it better, but I have no doubt that we both love our country. Where are you getting this stuff about me alluding to you not loving your country? I never said anything of the sort. I think you need to go back and re-read what I wrote and see where you misinterpreted it.

 

I've posted in length about airline security in a previous thread. It still sucks. Just this year, I realized after landing on a flight from Seattle to San Diego that I had put an antique knife (4" long blade) that a friend had given me into my carry-on and not the checked bag. I found it after I unpacked at home. That's a problem, and if you don't think so, you're the one with his head in the sand. Regarding port traffic, killing people in Iraq is not going to make our ports any safer. Neither is saying "The problem is too big to solve." That's a can't do attitude that we can't afford. I guess slowing commerce a little bit is worse than a nuke going off in Charleston or Long Beach? Come on dude, get a grip.

 

I'll ignore the Liberal comment, simply because it doesn't apply to me. You'd be surprised to know that I am not a Democrat I guess, eh? But anyway, if what the GWB isn't doing with regards to national security isn't sticking your head in the sand, I don't know what is. I already went over the main points (airports, shipping ports, police/fire/hospitals, CIA/FBI), I won't do it again simply because you haven't addressed the original arguments yet.

 

Regarding the war, I guess you're unaware of this - Saddam and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I guess you bought the Rove/Cheney association....sorry about that, but you've been duped - it's not true. You should really snap out of the Rove/Cheney spell. No matter how many times they say it, it still isn't true - Saddam is not responsible for 9/11, and wasn't even close to having WMD. Our sanctions and border/no-fly patrols were 100% effective. Hard to believe the war was unnecessary, but it was. Now you war supporters can go tell the 1,000+ soldiers' families that their sons/daughters/fathers/mothers/friends died for absolutely nothing.

 

I really don't know where you're getting all this stuff about my attitude on oil or gas hogs or whatever, I don't think I've ever talked about it or ventured much of an opinion on the matter, so perhaps you've got me confused with someone else. But I will tell you why I have a vehicle with a GVWR of 6,000+ lbs....because there are incentives to doing so. If there is one thing government does well, it's create incentives by rebates, tax breaks, etc. I have made observations about gas prices, but that's about it. Please show me where I've complained about this.

 

With regards to these discussions, I, too, appreciate our ability to have them. I only wish there were more people like you here who were somewhat capable of discussing things on a rational basis.

[m396 #00-011]

NakedAV,

 

I'm done responding to most of this, except for one sticking point that bothers me about the Liberal view on Iraq. By your posts, you seem as if we shouldn’t have been there.

 

As humans, do you feel mankind should have stood by while a dictator rapes and pillages his own people?

[SSminneapolis]

To All American Voters,

I am a senior citizen. During the Clinton Administration I had an extremely good and well paying job. I took numerous vacations and had several vacation homes. Since President Bush took office, I have watched my entire life change for the worse.

 

I lost my job.

I lost my two sons in that terrible Iraqi War.

I lost my homes.

I lost my health insurance.

 

As a matter of fact I lost virtually everything and became homeless. Adding insult to injury, when the authorities found me living like an animal, instead of helping me, they arrested me. I will do anything that Senator Kerry wants to insure that a Democrat is back in the White House come next year. Bush has to go.

 

I just thought you would like to know how one senior citizen views the Bush Administration. I tossed Kofi Annan's salad.

 

Thank you for taking time to read my letter.

 

Sincerely,

Saddam Hussein

[FwyFlyr]

Well Dude I'm glad you consider me "somewhat" capabable of having a discussion with you on these issues.

 

Basically I'm simple and self taught. I go with what works for me.

 

Afganistan has had free elections. So far unchallenged by critics outside this country.

 

My Taxes are down. My income is up.

 

I fly almost weekly. I wear slip ons, and no belt. I empty my pockets in advance.

 

Going back to our opening discussion, You never said how you would benefit from a Kerry Presidency.

 

Yes, I go for what is good for me. But I do not suck up benefits from the "system".

 

I my belief, those who pine for Kerry want the system to pave the way to their future. They do not wish to work for it themselves.

 

Remember, this country was founded on people who worked hard for themselves to a greater good, instead of working hard for the Brits.

 

Boston Tea Party ring a bell?

 

Bottom line..... I'm better off today than I was 5 years ago. Are you?

[Ghostrider]

Ok, I'll wade in on this if you guys don't mind.

 

1. If you look at Kerry's record (oh yeah, here comes that Vietnam stuff again) and what he said and did after his return from SEA, well, I don't think he's fit to command a row-boat full of cub scouts, let alone the most powerful arsenal on the planet. It amazes me, (I've recently had a personal encounter to back it up) how many young people have no idea what Hanoi-Jane and her traitor buddies did during the war and how badly it hurt the men who were serving over there at that time.

 

2. No, I don't think Bush is the best choice, but he's certainly the best one (IMO) with a chance of winning.

 

3. No, I don't own an SS.... (But this is my second Lightning in 2 years.)

 

4. (Just to spice things up) Who, besides me, thinks we need to sever all relationships with France and Russia, withdraw from the UN and kick that haven of corruption off our soil?

 

5. I believe the oil-for-food scandal should (and will) change our relationships with forgein powers for MANY years to come.

 

6. Nothing personal here, just my experssion of my beliefs....

 

enjoy == discuss...

[SSminneapolis]

#4

[TBSS]

NakedAV,

 

I'm done responding to most of this, except for one sticking point that bothers me about the Liberal view on Iraq.  By your posts, you seem as if we shouldn’t have been there.

 

As humans, do you feel mankind should have stood by while a dictator rapes and pillages his own people? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

m396 #00-011 - I'd actually love to help everyone who needs help. I believe that if I have something and don't need it, and you do, I should give it to you. This is not associated to any party or affiliation, but is my own personal set of beliefs that I do my best to adhere to.

 

That said, after 9/11, we needed (and still need, for that matter) every available resource here in our own country. We should have taken the last 3 years to stitch up our own country, long before striking out on any 'humanitarian' efforts (please keep in mind that I am going on your premise that humanitarianism is why we went to war in Iraq, which it wasn't). The exception to internalizing our resources was bin Laden in Afghanistan; I believe we should have gone after him and taken him out. But other than that, no wars when our own house is not yet in order.

 

My belief is that we have enough of our own stuff going on that we didn't need to be doing anything besides battening down the hatches here. Once our own country was secure, then we could go looking for good things to do in the world. But I need to make sure we are communicating using the same definitions of terms....you know that going into Iraq exampefies liberal foreign policy, correct?

 

Liberal foreign policy is based upon the idea that we can change the culture of any nation to one that welcomes democracy, whereas conservative foreign policy traditionally says that bringing democracy into a country might work over time, but that we must be careful about actively attempting to change any culture. Are we using these terms in the same way?

 

 

Well Dude I'm glad you consider me "somewhat" capabable of having a discussion with you on these issues.

 

Basically I'm simple and self taught. I go with what works for me.

 

Afganistan has had free elections. So far unchallenged by critics outside this country.

 

My Taxes are down. My income is up.

 

I fly almost weekly. I wear slip ons, and no belt. I empty my pockets in advance.

 

Going back to our opening discussion, You never said how you would benefit from a Kerry Presidency.

 

Yes, I go for what is good for me. But I do not suck up benefits from the "system".

 

I my belief, those who pine for Kerry want the system to pave the way to their future. They do not wish to work for it themselves.

 

Remember, this country was founded on people who worked hard for themselves to a greater good, instead of working hard for the Brits.

 

Boston Tea Party ring a bell?

 

Bottom line..... I'm better off today than I was 5 years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry about the dig, I really do appreciate your willingness to engage and discuss things here.

 

Regarding our national health, I don't look in my pocket to see how we're doing. I look at the long-term effects of present policy. Just like if I went out a bought another new vehicle and then quit my job, my neighbors might think I am doing well since I would always be out waxing my two new trucks....but it would all be an illusion because eventually my savings would dwindle, the bank would repo the car, and foreclose on the house.

 

I look a little further than my pocket and today to gauge the intelligence of decisions being made by our leadership. And the present administration is being staggeringly irresponsible. Eventually you will see, as will the rest of us, the horrific effects of this unmitigated spending spree.

 

Regarding your putting of others into tidy little boxes ("I my belief, those who pine for Kerry want the system to pave the way to their future. They do not wish to work for it themselves"), this is really unfortunate, because you miss out on a lot. If you think this of me, you are wrong. If you think this of all others, you are wrong. Read the Eisenhower article if you want to see what a real conservative believes is important, and you would understand why so many Republicans will be voting for Kerry next month.

[SSminneapolis]

I'd actually love to help everyone who needs help.  I believe that if I have something and don't need it, and you do, I should give it to you.  This is not associated to any party or affiliation, but is my own personal set of beliefs that I do my best to adhere to.

i do not believe that. if you do not have something, ask what you need to do to get it and do it yourself. if you cannot, if you have some physical handicap that does not allow you to work or metal handicap for that matter then there should be programs set up to help you..but the problem is that the programs have been polluted with people looking for freebeies...and people who are to lazy to get up and provide for themselves becuase the man had got em down...

 

That said, after 9/11, we needed (and still need, for that matter) every available resource here in our own country.  We should have taken the last 3 years to stitch up our own country, long before striking out on any 'humanitarian' efforts (please keep in mind that I am going on your premise that humanitarianism is why we went to war in Iraq, which it wasn't).  The exception to internalizing our resources was bin Laden in Afghanistan; I believe we should have gone after him and taken him out.  But other than that, no wars when our own house is not yet in order.

 

My belief is that we have enough of our own stuff going on that we didn't need to be doing anything besides battening down the hatches here.  Once our own country was secure, then we could go looking for good things to do in the world.  But I need to make sure we are communicating using the same definitions of terms....you know that going into Iraq exampefies liberal foreign policy, correct?

i agree. there are a lot of things that we need to do here, but i do not believe we would have waited for get the war on terror initiated. it is a fight that we must fight...it was not a choice..i was a neccessity. and we went into iraq for more than humanitarian efforts. why do you think the terrorists are fighting so hard to keep iraq away from freedom...because they have so much to loose. they loose the help from an evildoer ( i had to use that word..i think it is funny to)..the also lose a place to train...if you do not believe this i am sorry...there are a lot of people that do.

 

 

Liberal foreign policy is based upon the idea that we can change the culture of any nation to one that welcomes democracy, whereas conservative foreign policy traditionally says that bringing democracy into a country might work over time, but that we must be careful about actively attempting to change any culture.  Are we using these terms in the same way?

i agree. actively changing a culture has proved to be difficult over the years...but we do not have time. we did not have time because clinton..and if you want we can go back to carter..ignored the growing threat that manifested itself most evidently on the terrorist attacks here on 9-11...and if we do not continue the war on terror, it will manifest itself again and again...

[deezel]

After those last few posts I think we have found a few points we can agree on. Ghostrider, NakedAv, and SSmine (with your #4 post) have all suggested in some fashion that the US should have taken a more nationalist/isolationist stance on foreign policy after the 9/11 attack. I agree completely.

 

Now, I won't suggest that we should be strictly isolationist - the loss of all foreign trade would destroy our economy. However, I think we should have stopped immigration after 9/11 until sufficient security and intelligence were in place to properly screen all foreign nationals entering the country. "No offense to Europe or any other countries, we just need to get our borders secure and our intelligence up to date before we can be comfortable allowing more people the privilege of becoming citizens via immigration." This should not be offensive to other countries - many of them do not even allow immigration.

 

I also agree that we should have ruthlessly hunted down binladen, without regard for other nations or their opinions. Instead we tried to play it nice and "work with other nations" to get him. Unfortunately, it took this mistake for Bush to realize that the US needs to disregard diplomacy at some point.

 

Regarding the economy, some of us are better off and some of us are not - this is not relevant. There will always be examples of both no matter who is in office. I agree that tax cuts during wartime seems like a recipe for massive debt. It is my hope that the policy makers are correct in their analysis. The idea is supposed to be this - keep taxes low to stimulate economic growth, and thus generate more revenue by the increased economic activity.

One point that is somewhat overlooked is the combination of events that led to the current debt. The tech bubble burst at the end of Clinton's era - this cost the economy dearly. Then, corporate scandals cost us more (these can be blamed on big business, Clinton policies, or just general govt pork). Finally, the 9/11 terrorist attack cost us even more - direct costs of lost property and business, reduced air travel, increased spending for homeland security and military action, etc..

 

Thanks to all for trying to keep this a reasonable discussion.