Another Hemi bites the dust!!!

[CrAzYMoPaRGuY]

ah geez... Here we go..     

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Nah! We're just teasin' him!!!!!!!!

 

[zippy]

i'm interested in seeing the new 6.1L hemi. the trucks would be faster with the 5.7L if they could remember that they don't have to be so damn heavy. the old days of hemi meant alot. if you were a street racer it was a great thing. it usually meant someone that spent too much and wants to race because he has a "HEMI". if you were a street racer with a hemi you were required to carry spark plugs with you. i'd have taken a 440 over a hemi any day.

[SSThunder]

I stopped by and looked at the SRT-10. Pretty sweet. MPG is not good for me though. 9 city 12 highway and those ratings are always over rated. It was pretty much loaded, just didn't have the polished rims. Sales guy was feeding me a line of . Told me they've sold like 5 or 6 in the past couple months. He doesn't know I go by his lot all the time and I always check out the SRT-10's they have. My buddy lives a few miles from the Dodge lot and I pass it all the time. My point about the Hemi was that Dodge pushes it too much as a selling point. I read so many threads about SSs beating them. How much do the Hemi trucks weigh?

[I CORNER]

What I'm saying is that they are throwing the word Hemi around too much trying to use it as a selling point. I'm sure it works till the guy driving his 345HP Dodge Truck get's his butt handed to him by a 345HP Silverado SS. They shouldn't try to use it as a selling point in the Dodge truck IMO.

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Agreed. Everytime I see a commercial claiming that the 345hp Hemi Ram "is the most powerful full-size pickup", I think, but what about the SSS (or the SRT-10 standard and quad cab Rams for that matter)?

 

1/4 mile magazine comparsions showed the SSS and the lighter Hemi Standard cab to be pretty close in ET and trap speed with the SSS with a neglible advantage (less then 1 mph faster). The Hemi Quad cab which is actually the same weight as the SSS, is definitely slower. Based on this and the higher driveline losses of the AWD SSS, I think the Hemi power output is overrated.

 

Rick R

[PREMIERS SS]

i agree they push the hemi image but it sells trucks will call it the user freindly hemi no wrenching required.

[B&G]

What I'm saying is that they are throwing the word Hemi around too much trying to use it as a selling point.

 

Nostalgia sells. If they are throwing the word (HEMI) around too much, can't the same be said for Chevrolet/GM when they slap an SS badge on many vehicles, even if they are undeserving of it?

 

I'm sure it works till the guy driving his 345HP Dodge Truck get's his butt handed to him by a 345HP Silverado SS. They shouldn't try to use it as a selling point in the Dodge truck IMO.

 

Being that I have no bias towards or against a SSS or a Hemi Ram. I have to say, along with a few others, that a SSS can be defeated (stock for stock) against a Hemi Ram and vice versa. Anyone with an open mind will agree to this. Again, tell me why Dodge can't use the word "HEMI" as a selling point but Chevrolet can use "SS" as one?

 

The SRT-10 is the best they have made so far, but the sticker of $52K for the QC is too much.

 

While I do agree that $52K is a bit much, Chevrolet has sold a few trucks in recent years that were outrageous in price for what you didn't receive. Remember when the SSS hit the lots and the price was over $40K? How about the SSR? That is by no means cheap and affordable to the average person. GM and Dodge both offer "performance" trucks that leave alot to be desired in terms of price.

[SSThunder]

Yeah I agree about Chevy throwing the SS around too much. I didn't know they were going to add SS to ever thing they make , But they don't advertise it on TV in my area. Every 5 mins I see another Hemi TV ad. From my experience the SS seems to have the upper hand on the Hemi. I've read very little or heard very little about the Hemi beating the SS stock. The SS sticker of $40 isn't too bad but the SSR it just crazy. Yeah it's cool and nice but it's like paying almost $50K for a Chevy S-10 all souped-up IMO. I'm only partial to American made vehicles. I've owned 2 Silverado's in the past 4 years and now I'm looking at the SRT-10. Wife liked it but is mad that I want a new truck after 1 year. 3 new trucks in 4 years sounds good to me lol . At least I'll never get bored of driving something new.

[CrAzYMoPaRGuY]

i'm interested in seeing the new 6.1L hemi. the trucks would be faster with the 5.7L if they could remember that they don't have to be so damn heavy. the old days of hemi meant alot. if you were a street racer it was a great thing. it usually meant someone that spent too much and wants to race because he has a "HEMI". if you were a street racer with a hemi you were required to carry spark plugs with you. i'd have taken a 440 over a hemi any day.

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Lemme guess......

YOU WERE NEVER THERE....?!?!

hahaha

 

That was an easy one...?

 

The "Hemi truck" legend is a funny one. No 426 Hemi trucks were made, and the older Hemis in the 50's were placed in the big trucks, as bullet-prrof reliable power.

Me thinks some here need some history lessons?

 

And the "carry spark plugs"...? What the heck is that supposed to mean? It's pretty funny! Maybe a "carry tools to set the valves" would have been better....... The spark plugs weren't a problem. Valves being set on a Hemi is what the only "tuning troubles" were back then.

Do you "carry a transfer case" with you when YOU race?

 

1970/1971 Hemis turned to small hydraulic cams to combat the "owner neglect" issue.

Never saw the "spare spark plugs" option....

 

[zippy]

i'm very familier with the muscle cars of the old days. it was a hobby for a while. anyone that owned one back in that era could tell you that most were in very poor tune and fowled out the plugs on a regular basis. i agree, there were no trucks made with the 426 hemi and it's a good thing. they'd likely have some outragous value on the market, but wouldn't have been any kind of impressive performer. if you go to the muscle car events where they actually still run them and you find one that's running hard, it isn't stock.

 

as for tuning troubles? i assume you've tuned some carburated stuff before. there is no knock sensors or anything of that type to help you. no programmable timing curve. getting the timing curve right and base timing is a big deal. getting the jetting to be happy isn't easy either. the jetting that was happy yesterday isn't going to be as forgiving once the temperature changes. try and tune one with 2x4bbls. that is a job in itself. quite often missfires were also created by oil leaking past the valve cover into the spark plug area. i'm guessing the hemi's you've worked on have all been in perfect tune from day one and run great in all weather with no issue's.

[CrAzYMoPaRGuY]

i'm very familier with the muscle cars of the old days. it was a hobby for a while. anyone that owned one back in that era could tell you that most were in very poor tune and fowled out the plugs on a regular basis. i agree, there were no trucks made with the 426 hemi and it's a good thing. they'd likely have some outragous value on the market, but wouldn't have been any kind of impressive performer. if you go to the muscle car events where they actually still run them and you find one that's running hard, it isn't stock.

 

as for tuning troubles? i assume you've tuned some carburated stuff before. there is no knock sensors or anything of that type to help you. no programmable timing curve. getting the timing curve right and base timing is a big deal. getting the jetting to be happy isn't easy either. the jetting that was happy yesterday isn't going to be as forgiving once the temperature changes. try and tune one with 2x4bbls. that is a job in itself. quite often missfires were also created by oil leaking past the valve cover into the spark plug area. i'm guessing the hemi's you've worked on have all been in perfect tune from day one and run great in all weather with no issue's. 

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Hahaha

Seems you are quoting OLD WIVES TALES, not memories. To me at least.

I run dual carbs all the time. I set them up, and away I go. Do you think they need "constant tuning" or something?!?!?

I had dual quads on my WORK TRUCK. For a half dozen years. I was going to toss them on my motorhome too.

They aren't ...... ScArY at all....?

Who needs to do "base jetting" on a stock dual quad carb when it's already been done by the factory?

Ever had troubles with "base jetting" a single 4bbl 350 Chevy?

 

I haven't.....?

;)

 

I street raced in the 1970's, I am willing to bet you didn't, not from your comments. The Hemis would put a pounding on most of the modified stuff that showed up regularly, most modified cars back then were 13 second cars, not the 10 second stuff you see everywhere now. A stock Hemi car could run 13s with very little effort.

 

I'm guessing the *ahem* "OLD CHEVYS you've worked on have all been in perfect tune from day one and run great in all weather with no issue's.

 

 

I'm guessing the 435hp 427 Corvettes were REAL slugs back in their day, with YOUR theories?

 

THREE carbs must mean an undriveable car.

 

Right?

 

Sorry, but I was there, and your version isn't right.

[zippy]

i agree with you about the times things ran. a 13 second car back in the late 60's to early 70's was a damn fast ride. i wasn't around at that time, i'm not that old. my information comes from good sources of not only people that used to race back then, but people that owned hemi's in them days. i've also discussed this with people that own them currently. the track not to far from me is mid michigan motorplex which is where the pure stock drags have been held for years. i will say that the majority of the guys that told me of the plug fowling issue also said this would happen after cruising the strip alot and too much idling. anyone running dual carbs these days is pretty well wasting their time in my opinion. it has been proven that you can make over 1000hp at the flywheel with a single carb so why does someone's 400hp setup need 2 carbs. as for the tuning issue, why in the world would you leave the jetting stock? most guys that actually were putting mods to their hemi were doing mods that would have made it too lean. at least lean enough to the point where going up in jet size would be a gain. as for the thing with the 435hp vette's, those kinds of cars were like having the z06's of today. most mildly modified toys would hand them their ass. it had nothing to do with carbs or anything. alot like the porsche you laid the smack down on, the vette owners usually bought cars they couldn't drive.

[CrAzYMoPaRGuY]

I was racing way back when, cause I *AM* that old....

 

Many of the modified cars could NOT beat a Hemi or a 435/427 Corvette.

Most Hemi owners who DID throw headers on their cars and cams in their engines could do a jet change with very little effort. Those cars were usually at the track.

Most Hemi owners who had "two left hands" and couldn't change jets usually didn't toss performance equipment on their cars, they had Hemis that idled smoothly until they went out of valve adjustment, and if they were under dealership maintenance they would run well, when they weren't they were usually drove into the ground.

 

Dual carbs is not that big a deal. It seems to ME you are used to EFI and recent vehicles. I've ran dual quads on my daily drivers for two decades, I have a wee bit of experience with them. I won't begin on the "how many times" stories of when we were at cruises and people would start in about "two four barrels can never be set up right" stories, only to have me pop my hood. My vehicles idled strong, drove well, no flat spots. They worked excellent.

It's a common misconception.

 

Take a vehicle that has been modified for looks, with poor parts choices, toss a tunnel ram on it with two 850 dp carbs, and you have the kind of car that starts those "dual quads are useless" myths.

Problem is, when they are converted back to a single 4bbl, they STILL run terrible, yet nobody says "4 bbls run terrible"...?

 

The old Chevy tunnel rams had a "shelf" in many of them around the top of the intake. Fuel would separate, and sit in the shelf, until rapid acceleration/deceleratin/cornering.

THOSE tunnel rams, and I can tell you from experience, WERE JUNK!!!!!!

 

I think your "Hemi plug fouling" friends *might* not have been the world's most knowledgeable, as the imports that run plugs through the covers don't seem to have much "plug fouling" troubles, do they?

What is different from the new crate engines, the new Hemis, the new import engines of today that have plug tubes, and the old Hemis?

 

If there was a "problem" then, don't you think there would be a "problem"NOW?

 

Sounds to me like a guy who picked a wrong spark plug heat range etc..... is blaming the ENGINE, not the..... MECHANIC!

[zippy]

i don't say dual quads are useless from a tuning stand point. two carbs just aren't needed. as with any carbs as long as you are working with a pair of decent units that are matched proplerly in equipment (jetting, acc pumps, etc.) tuning them isn't the big nightmare. it does leave more room for error since two pieces of mechanical equipment are now being relied on for fueling instead of just one. with carb selection as big as 1500cfm out there why would anyone use two?

 

the imports you see these days running plug wires through the valve cover don't often have the oil leaks that some of the hemi's had with oil getting to the plug wire. it is not uncommon however for them to have issue's with water getting in there causing the spark to follow up the plug wire boot and send the voltage through the valve cover. this probably probably isn't the issue it once was since the gaskets and seals of today are much better than they once were. the same issue with fowling plugs. it's not uncommon to see a newer muscle car used for cruising, etc. that has an electronic ignition conversion to it as well as plug wires made with a little bit better technology. if you have an engine that is a little finiky about valve adjustment running around with points that may have seen better days, you'll have a big inch engine that isn't big on idling or anything resembling it. this was always my theory on the issue's i'd been hearing of the plug fowling issue. the design of the hemi's combustion chambers mainly required a dome type of piston for the bigger compression numbers which also can contribute to unhappy street manners. the hemi design was excellent for blower applications due to it's chamber size not only allowing for huge valves, but blower cooperating compression ratio's. hence the reason for hemi's in so much of big racing like top fuel, etc. the guys driving corvette's with 427's that you ran into just happen to be good drivers. the performance of a 427 corvette is certainly par with the big muscle cars of them days, the drivers of most corvette's however.....

[I CORNER]

I don't know about the dual carbs on a Mopar. I am 47. My roomate at Georgia Tech had a 69 Charger with a worked 440 and dual Carter AFBs with mechanical secondaries. It took him ten minutes to get the car started on a 40 degree morning. "Wah-Wah-Wah-Wah-Wah ... rump-rump... stall" repeated 20 times. His car was fast as bat out of hell at highway speeds, but as it had too little vacuum at normal rpms, it was a responsive as an old dog with 3 legs when he first nailed the gas.

[CrAzYMoPaRGuY]

i don't say dual quads are useless from a tuning stand point. two carbs just aren't needed. as with any carbs as long as you are working with a pair of decent units that are matched proplerly in equipment (jetting, acc pumps, etc.) tuning them isn't the big nightmare. it does leave more room for error since two pieces of mechanical equipment are now being relied on for fueling instead of just one. with carb selection as big as 1500cfm out there why would anyone use two?

 

the imports you see these days running plug wires through the valve cover don't often have the oil leaks that some of the hemi's had with oil getting to the plug wire. it is not uncommon however for them to have issue's with water getting in there causing the spark to follow up the plug wire boot and send the voltage through the valve cover. this probably probably isn't the issue it once was since the gaskets and seals of today are much better than they once were. the same issue with fowling plugs. it's not uncommon to see a newer muscle car used for cruising, etc. that has an electronic ignition conversion to it as well as plug wires made with a little bit better technology. if you have an engine that is a little finiky about valve adjustment running around with points that may have seen better days, you'll have a big inch engine that isn't big on idling or anything resembling it. this was always my theory on the issue's i'd been hearing of the plug fowling issue. the design of the hemi's combustion chambers mainly required a dome type of piston for the bigger compression numbers which also can contribute to unhappy street manners. the hemi design was excellent for blower applications due to it's chamber size not only allowing for huge valves, but blower cooperating compression ratio's. hence the reason for hemi's in so much of big racing like top fuel, etc. the guys driving corvette's with 427's that you ran into just happen to be good drivers. the performance of a 427 corvette is certainly par with the big muscle cars of them days, the drivers of most corvette's however.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There was NO SUCH THING as a "1500 cfm carb" available to the masses back in 1970, let alone 1964 when the Hemi came out.

The Hemi was a top end runner, it had 2.25" intake valves and 1.94 exhaust valves STOCK, with flow numbers most race ported heads of the day could never hope to see. It NEEDED the cfms of the two carbs to run at high rpms.

If the Hemi was run with 3.23 gears in a heavy car it might not run like it was designed, but a 3.91 or steeper gear in a 3500 pound car would make it a street terror back in the 1970s.

 

The "fouling plugs" that you keep insisting on sounds like you've heard it somewhere, but I'll have to wonder about the source. Points, mechanical cams, etc require maintenance, which wasn't a ritual among many once the owners had to pay for the job. Same goes for any engine of a high performance nature. Maybe using a dented plug tube could explain what you've heard?

 

The Hemi was an efficient design, both for gas mileage (a better BSFC than most) and it wasn't prone to detonation. It made huge power stock. Stock it was a detuned mill out of it's intended power range too, you have to remember...?

 

We raced a 327 1969 Chevelle in the 1970s. It was very warmed over, not a mild effort, at least in OUR eyes, and we never went "picking on" Hemis, or 427 Corvettes for that matter.

 

A 427/435hp Corvette was a VERY fast car in the 1970s. Most of the drivers I saw in them were more competent than you give them credit for.

 

Try running a mid 13 second 1/4 mile at over 110 mph on a skinny 14" or 15" bias ply tire like the Hemi cars did, and it will make you appreciate what the old stuff had to overcome. It wasn't "just" the weight.... ;)