radix + crane = no good

[ChevyHighPerformance]

In all of my articles I wrote the truth of what we found out - good or bad. For part 6 we had trouble with some parts from crane. In case, the story (which is not complete yet) gets cut or edited after I submit it, here is what happened:

 

For part 6, we wanted to go internal. So I called crane, told them our mods, and got their best recommendation (cam, 1.8 rockers, crane programmer, etc.)

 

We installed the stuff with the help of a GM tech whose only job is to do performance stuff for a chevy dealership.

 

We took the truck to Zippy's event and ran it at the track. At the end of part 4 we were ran a 12.79 ET. At Zippy's event we ran a 14 and after zippy did some work we ran mid 13's. The truck ran terrible. A far cry from our previous best. When the truck was running we noticed better mid an top end but the bottom sucked - our 60 foot times went from 1.7 to 2 seconds. Basically before zippy touched the truck it ran the same as with the stock radix and no other mod. The cam and rockers simply erased any perfromance gain we had from the other stuff (headers, exhaust, lighter wheels, smaller pulley, etc.).

 

Later we found out that the cam that crane recommended was very similar to a LS6 cam (i.e. a NA cam). The cam bled off the boost down low due to its overlap which was magnified by the 1.8 rockers. In simple terms, overlap is the time when the intake valve and the exhaust valve are open at the same time. During overlap the exiting exhaust gas draws more intake air in (scavenging like with long tube headers).

 

For a SC engine you need less overlap unless you have a ton of boost and a few psi bleed off isn't a problem. I think the cam's separation was about 113 degrees. According to a few pros 117 to 120 would be much better.

 

Now back at the ranch, the crane cam was removed and the 1.8 rockers were left in. Misfires galore! Crane recommends to tighten the rockers about 2 full turns after zero lash. Everyone said we were fools for following crane's recommendations. Everyone was right. The rockers were backed off to one turn. Ran better - but still misfires. The rockers were adjusted while the engine was running to determine the sensitivity and a 1/8 turn was the difference between misfire and not for that cylinder. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

The stock rockers are in with the crane springs. Idles perfect - no misfires.

 

The crane programmer was another nightmare.

 

Significant time was spent with the crane stuff only to rip it out. I wanted the truth to get out in case it doesn't make it in print.

 

Here are some things that we learned:

 

1) If you are going to do a significant mod, seek a second opinion. I should have got the cam specs and ran them past some other people first.

 

2) What works well on a 5.3 may not work well on a 6.0 - look at volant's first air box and now the crane stuff.

 

3) There are cams that will mate well with the radix - just not the one we got.

 

4) Don't let anyone BS you - a good tuner using HP tuners (or another OBD2 tuning tool) will do better than a handheld programmer with one-size-fits-all programming.

[BenKey]

Thanks for posting the info. Not new news about handhelds.

 

If you were going to go with a cam I wish you would have gone to Futral Motorsports and asked Allan Futral what he recommended. He is one of the best, if not THE best, cam guy for the LSx motors. I never have really felt too well with what companies like Comp or Crane recommended when if you called one time vs another you got two different answers.

 

Most will not recommend a cam and higher ratio rockers together and surprised that Crane did. Why not just get the cam cut the way you want instead? Surprised Crane didn't recommend their 1.7 quick-lift design with a good cam. In the end the cam they recommended was altered by the 1.8 rockers.

 

Doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.

[misterp]

I wonder what exactly it was about the combo that caused the misfires - I understand missing low-end and poor idle, but misfires? It almost sounds like the intakes were never closing, or the cam was waaaayyyy out of phase or ??? I know that this is not very glamorous for a major advertiser, but if the magazine ran an article on the importance of choosing correct parts, thinking in terms of combinations, and what happens when you don't it would be very good to see.

 

Thanks for the up-front scoop on your experience, it means a lot. Really sorry to hear about all the effort you went through just for the aggravating experience; I've done it too a couple times (as I'm sure we all have). Keep fighting the good fight.

 

Mr. P.

[BenKey]

Misfires are common with cam changeout. There is real misfire and misfire that is caused by the timing of the cam. What is usually done is raising the threshold of the misfire code. Not sure if that was the issue or not though.

[dantwomey]

Thanks for posting the info.  Not new news about handhelds.

 

If you were going to go with a cam I wish you would have gone to Futral Motorsports and asked Allan Futral what he recommended.  He is one of the best, if not THE best, cam guy for the LSx motors.  I never have really felt too well with what companies like Comp or Crane recommended when if you called one time vs another you got two different answers.

 

Most will not recommend a cam and higher ratio rockers together and surprised that Crane did.  Why not just get the cam cut the way you want instead?  Surprised Crane didn't recommend their 1.7 quick-lift design with a good cam.  In the end the cam they recommended was altered by the 1.8 rockers.

 

Doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Has anyone tried LPE's GT3 cam? Based on some excellent advice I've received in this forum I've learned that this will be a good choice for my future Radix install. I was told by one of the Moderator's that this cam was specifically designed for the Radix. If anyone's had any experience with this cam I would be very curious about potential gains.

 

Regards,

Dan

[vdrumright]

Thanks for posting the info.  Not new news about handhelds.

 

If you were going to go with a cam I wish you would have gone to Futral Motorsports and asked Allan Futral what he recommended.  He is one of the best, if not THE best, cam guy for the LSx motors.  I never have really felt too well with what companies like Comp or Crane recommended when if you called one time vs another you got two different answers.

 

Most will not recommend a cam and higher ratio rockers together and surprised that Crane did.  Why not just get the cam cut the way you want instead?  Surprised Crane didn't recommend their 1.7 quick-lift design with a good cam.  In the end the cam they recommended was altered by the 1.8 rockers.

 

Doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Has anyone tried LPE's GT3 cam? Based on some excellent advice I've received in this forum I've learned that this will be a good choice for my future Radix install. I was told by one of the Moderator's that this cam was specifically designed for the Radix. If anyone's had any experience with this cam I would be very curious about potential gains.

 

Regards,

Dan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I have one sitting on my work bench waiting to be installed...... Actually, I think LPE calls it the GT2-3.

[blown ss]

Hey Zippy, TJ, Please tell your Gram and Pap that we appreciate the use of both of you and your expertise on the trans upgrade and especially the shop time. I changed back to the stock cam and rockers and pushrods and the trucks runs great, Crane tells you to take the engine to top dead center, take the rockers to zero lash, spin the engine another 360 degrees, check for zero lash again then a quarter turn. Then they tell you to wait 30 minutes to let the lifters bleed down and then another quarter turn, wait 15 minutes then another quarter turn wait another 15 minutes then again and again for a total of 2 full turns and over 2 hours to set the rockers, this is crazy, the GM tech who helped us, (set all the Camaro and Corvettes to 1 full turn he did with the same cam and the 1.7 rockers but he told us do not use the 1.8 rockers with this cam in a Camaro or Corvette but he uses 1.7 rockers with this cam) so we listened to him and went with 1 turn . We had it at 1 full turn when we came to the Zippy event going from a (12.7 to a 14.4 in the quarter mile and with the cold air that nite we should have run much better, When we ran the 12.7 it was 84 degrees) then Zippy played with the programming and had a best run of 13.5 with all kind of codes going off and reduced engine power, it did not run to bad on the way home just threw a mass air flow code. I changed back to the stock cam, (the cam Crane sent us was for a naturally aspirated LS1) the is what the Gm tech told us he uses on the Camaro and Corvette but Crane told us it would work great with the Radix) as my brother said in the beginning thread the LSA on the Crane cam was way off for the Radix, and by the way they did not have the LSA on the cam card So I kept the Crane rockers, pushrods, and the springs with the titanium retainers. I then did the 2 full turns and the truck would not run threw misfire codes and mass air flow codes. I thought I did not go thru the proper sequence so I took them off rechecked them and put them back in and reset them to GM specs instead of Cranes 1/4 turn and wait 15 minutes I brought it up to top dead center and set the rockers as GM states, rotated 360 did the opposite cylinders and then another 360 and 1 more full turn then rotate it 360 again and 1 more full turn for the opposite cylinders to 2 full turns again I did not want to over load the lifters since Crane tells you to let them to bleed down. Truck still run terrible with the same codes tried 3 different computers with PCM for Less, Crane tune and Zippy tune, all 3 were the same, same codes. I decided to go with 1 turn and the way GM tells you to set the rockers, the truck idled better but still had some pretty good tapping even after 15 minutes of run time ( pump up the lifters ) so I ran the truck with out the valve covers and tried to find the tapping lifter, so I started with #1 cylinder and gave the lock nuts somewhere between a 1/8 to 1/4 turn, when I did that the 1 cylinder started to miss badly and I also tried some of the other cylinders with the same results I would never believe that 1/8 turn would make it miss like that. Now I would like to shove the cam, rockers, and pushrods all the way up Cranes ass all the way up!!! By the way it was 94 degrees, so I am on my 3rd shirt, so being pissed off I took off the Crane rockers, pushrods, guide plates and studs but left the springs and retainers in, put in the stock ones and started up the truck. My wife was sitting in the garage she just brought me a beer so I hit the key it fired right up and idled perfectly and no codes, she caught me off guard by telling me to shut it off, she thought that the smoke under the hood and the condensation out off the pipe that there was something wrong, I was inside the truck checking for misfires and maf codes. So I shut it off to make her happy and had to show her the oil that dripped on the headers ( I did brake clean everything but you always get some down by the collector and the flange) and had to explain about condensation, at this point I am finally gaining some headway with the truck. So at 11:30 pm at nite I revved it to 6,000 rpm it sounded great, I finally quit (worked on it most of the day with a couple pool dips to cool off I was physically and especially mentally challenged I could have really shoved the cam and rockers up the ASS of our contact person at Crane. So this morning buttoned everything up started the truck sounded and idled great, washed it, took it for a ride and like I said ran great, it really sucks to have a $40,000 truck and you can't drive it. So in the end we really don't want anyone to go thru what I had to!!!! I would not recommend Crane's cam for the Radix. Try Furtral or LPE but I think I am done with the cam and rockers for now we are using the springs and titanium retainers to rev to 6200 rpm and we will let you know what happens when we hit the track we are also trying a larger throttle body 80 mm. and a Magnaflow exhaust , hopefully we will run better that the 13.5 at Zippys event, we felt bad that we did not run like we have posted a 12.7 but for those of you who where there you now we had some real issues.. But stand by we will try to get to the track Tuesday of Thursday, TimB and Quickmedic PM myself or my brother Monday and we will let you guys no what day according to the weather... Sorry this was so long but I was very PO'd and I want you all to know what the problem was. My brother always writes what works and what doesn't, and he is not sure if this will get edited out of the upcoming article..... By the way MWalls and Vince I have alot of dollar bills when we get together again...

[misterp]

My GAWD what an ordeal; the last time I adjusted running rockers has to be at least 10 years ago, gotta love that oily smoky mess.

 

Mr. P.

[BenKey]

Wow, a lot of reading. Sounded like a lot of work. I haven't heard of someone using the old school style of setting rockers in a long time, or not at all on these motors. Stock type rockers get 22ftlbs and you're done.

 

I didn't use Crane's procedures either, which I hear were written by Vinci out of FL. The reason I was able to forgo all that BS was that I have a much better than stock lifter in my truck now, or at least much different. I went with Crane's 1.7s, but used CompR lifters. These lifters have to have a pre-load of .002-.005, so not much of a turn at all on the adjusting nuts. A little different than stock lifters. I looked at the procedures and just went

 

I just can't see why they would recommend both things. Their quick-lift design on their race-gold rockers is pretty awesome. Too bad you got a hold of someone that doesn't seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground. The one guy I spoke with seemed pretty knowledgable, but then again, I wasn't looking for a cam rec from him.

 

What were the cam specs?

[misterp]

I haven't tried them, but I have also heard very good things about the CompR lifters. I tell you what I would like to know, what thread is the adjustment nut?

[BenKey]

something metric

[dantwomey]

Thanks for posting the info.  Not new news about handhelds.

 

If you were going to go with a cam I wish you would have gone to Futral Motorsports and asked Allan Futral what he recommended.  He is one of the best, if not THE best, cam guy for the LSx motors.  I never have really felt too well with what companies like Comp or Crane recommended when if you called one time vs another you got two different answers.

 

Most will not recommend a cam and higher ratio rockers together and surprised that Crane did.  Why not just get the cam cut the way you want instead?  Surprised Crane didn't recommend their 1.7 quick-lift design with a good cam.  In the end the cam they recommended was altered by the 1.8 rockers.

 

Doesn't make sense to me why they would do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Has anyone tried LPE's GT3 cam? Based on some excellent advice I've received in this forum I've learned that this will be a good choice for my future Radix install. I was told by one of the Moderator's that this cam was specifically designed for the Radix. If anyone's had any experience with this cam I would be very curious about potential gains.

 

Regards,

Dan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I have one sitting on my work bench waiting to be installed...... Actually, I think LPE calls it the GT2-3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Could you make a point of passing along your impressions once it's installed?

 

Regards,

Dan

[SSLink]

As I have mentioned previously I am running the GT2-3 with a Radix and so far so good. Really smooth, stock-like idle with stronger than stock pull above 4000 RPM. I really don't think I am reaching full potential at the top end on my setup, though. I'll be installing bigger injectors soon and getting a fresh tune (and e-fans) from Zippy.

 

Once we get it running good I will report back with more. For one thing, I hope to get to W2W for a few dyno pulls,

[blown ss]

Wow, a lot of reading.  Sounded like a lot of work.  I haven't heard of someone using the old school style of setting rockers in a long time, or not at all on these motors.  Stock type rockers get 22ftlbs and you're done.

 

I didn't use Crane's procedures either, which I hear were written by Vinci out of FL.  The reason I was able to forgo all that BS was that I have a much better than stock lifter in my truck now, or at least much different.  I went with Crane's 1.7s, but used CompR lifters.  These lifters have to have a pre-load of .002-.005, so not much of a turn at all on the adjusting nuts.  A little different than stock lifters.  I looked at the procedures and just went 

 

I just can't see why they would recommend both things.  Their quick-lift design on their race-gold rockers is pretty awesome.  Too bad you got a hold of someone that doesn't seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground.  The one guy I spoke with seemed pretty knowledgable, but then again, I wasn't looking for a cam rec from him.

 

What were the cam specs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[blown ss]

Ben, the cam specs are 551 lift 278 I and 286 E. duration. Ben I was trying everything to make the Crane products to work even old school, used Cranes method of 2 full turns truck runs terrible, then 1 full turn, truck idles better, then go back to the stock rockers and pushrods torqued to 22ft. lb. and the truck runs great.