BenKey Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 Yes, that is the reason the intake is plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meegs Posted September 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 short answer is no. this is a singlewall pipeing. there is no insulation in singlewall pipes of any material. the past few comments have been sidetracked totaly. to insulate you need more than 1/16" be it metal or plastic. furthermore if you really want to call it an igloo you need more than just convection as your insulating material. the glass in metal thermoses have been mirrored to reflect heat energy in the form of radiation. ultra violet heat vibration. the plastic box under your hood will be the same temp as a metal box. that is the message i FAILED to get across with the chair example. you don't have to like the out come, you don't have to fully understand the outcome...but in this universe [homer simpson] "Lisa in this house we will obey the Laws of Thermodynamics" [end homer's voice] heat transfers ONLY from hot to cold. 3 forms of heat transfer 1) conduction 2) convection 3) radiation and that is IT!! conduction = pressing something together convection = blowing across an object "wind chill" radiation = the sun hot air circulates around the engin compartment (convection) and press against the intake tubing (conduction). thus where ever the intake tube is it will be the same temp as the hot engine ambient air temp. a 1/16" thick piece of plastic/metal has no insulating factor to it. but they do disapate heat differently "heat soak" so the only way to effectivaly change intake air temp is pull the air from a different location and feed it to the engine as quick as possiable, smooth as possiable and as short as possiable. because remember that while this air is traviling inside the intake tubing it will be using "conduction" with the inside/outside walls of the CAI. With that mouthful then one needs to look at how the are is scavenged from the "outside" of the engine compartment. 1) use a block off plate and use the inner fenderwell as a shield against engine air temps. 2) but a plastic box inside the engine with a few holes in it and try and "pull" air into the airbox. I'm sorry for posting this and will not post on this matter any further. If you don't like what I am trying to explain then you need to take a college level physics class. because I don't have the time or patients to condence 1 semester of physics into a few lines on the internet web page. Meegs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meegs Posted September 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 You need some thick skin to be around here. Many people joke on here. Stop taking everything so personal. ...I will not squabble over 3-4hp anyway. ... I certainly hope that in all your hoddy car building, you haven't judged what to buy/not to buy by the results posted on the manufacturer's website that you have purchased from. I will agree to disagree on the plastic vs metal. .... I guess your theories weren't observed by igloo cooler makers. Guess they should have been using metal all along. Coleman used to make some metal ones, but also used plastic to insulate them from the external... thick skin...10-4 3-4 hp...agreed this horse is beatin' to death I have built many cars/truck and usually try and get a WOW factor from people. My cars are way outside the norm. I make good money but someone always has more than me...but I have creativity and the the other character only has a checkbook! everything use to be made from metal. now everything is made from plastic. not a measure of "igloo" Vs. "Coleman" but of price points. hell the seats on my SSS are made of plastic. its called leather but i can only 'feel' about 4 sheets of real leather and the rest is all plastic, the whole back seet is plastic for crying out loud. the metal thermoses work the best!!!!!!!!! ask any coffee drinker on the planet!!! metal frame with close cell insulation with a mirrored glass liner. add in the vaccuum effect of changing physical states and you get the 'ideal gas law' pressure = temp, PV=nRT and what you get in the end is a hot cup of coffee well past the lunch hour. ~I'm sorry you don't agree with what I am saying and you think i don't know what I am talking about. But i do...i have been threw many calc, physics, statics, dynamics classes and i "think" i know how things opperate on Earth. I say i think because there is always a certain level of...."act of god" out there. ~~physics class was like a frag gernade. the professor would come in and lecture for 50 minutes and you would leave the classroom thinking the sky was going to fall down! He would kinda set up the scean....pull the pin....let it cook....then *BOOM*....you were left scratching your head and took a while for it to set in. that is where physics lab came into effect!!! not just audible learning...visual learning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 well OK then.... guess I missed this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenKey Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 FWIW, I believe the Volant and Outlaw pull their air from the same place as the AEM. The only real difference then, is how the filter is housed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggler_d Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 FWIW, I believe the Volant and Outlaw pull their air from the same place as the AEM. The only real difference then, is how the filter is housed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> that's my understanding also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_a_n_payne Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I dont really care what yall say but with my AEM, 10.9AVG MPG, now with my Outlaw, 12.5AVG MPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I dont really care what yall say but with my AEM, 10.9AVG MPG, now with my Outlaw, 12.5AVG MPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> DAYUM!! Thats purty good man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoreySS Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 my vr ram air i'm getting 16 avg mpg!!!!!!! and i sit in traffic to and from work!!!!!!! Korey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 well OK then.... guess I missed this one. Me too! Mr. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11H Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Hello to all ... I am a newb on here yes, but NOT a nube in the intake plenum world ... The intake plenum (as well as exhaust) is one of the most misunderstood things on the net and I see some talent and real good analytical thinkers in this thread, so I guess you good braniacs got to me enough to post something ... There are yes, properties of heat transfer as one mentioned above, but in an "active flow" environment, like in a CAI tube, heat transfer is not as much as most think ... Aluminum, steel or IM plastic is purely IMO irrelevant in an intake tube ... I can tell you why, but I want to get some positive response before I do, because it gets very technical and may put some rumors to rest that people like myself like to keep to ourselves due to the inflamatory nature of the topic... So, in short, to me, a plastic tube vs. a metal tube is simply cheaper and once a mould is created/R&D'd materials cost is maybe 1/4 or less of what a metal tube costs, so to me, a K&N FIPK vs. an AEM Brute costs MUUUCH less to manufacture overall and why is it the same money? ... leave that to thought ... Finally, the 2 things that dictate power in a cai is air VOLUME and/or TEMP ... Either pull more air in a given RPM or pull COOLER air or a balance of both to equal a final gain ... I see on this board that MOST people are going for the "enclosed" Volant or Outlaw and the comment above is "only an enclosed element is a true CAI" ... I ask HOW SO? Because the element is shielded? ... Anyone know where the IAT sensor is located? (In the MAF) could it be possible that since the MAF is not shielded from heat in the engine bay, and it suffers it's own heat soak as to resort to telling the PCM to pull timing and fuel and resort to a lesser PE table? --- I have done testing on "still air boxes" as in the OEM box, and the Volant, and under the SAME conditions, it takes a LOT longer to cool the IAT than with an open element ... I have some ideas why, but those are the facts ... IAT deterioration and it's inability to cool quickly will hinder your HP ... nuff said there ... Another topic, "tuned length" whether it be with actual length or diameter OR shape, has a lot to do with how a CAI makes power ... all dynoes except loaded eddie dynoes test WOT and a NA motor only pulls with a single character at WOT and as long as the tuned length is not grossly high or low, it will be fed ... what nobody ever talks about is 0-95% throttle and driveability ... which is where tuned length comes into play with intake tract design and exhaust as well ... change tuned length and you move and change the power curve ... Finally, what I was getting at on tube material was something a few poepl know about called "boundary layer" ... On an active flow environment like in a wind tunnel or cai tube, there is an outer layer that does not achieve laminar flow ... (main stream flow) ... The boundary layer is very high or comprises a large cross-sectional area on near the walls of the tube (or wind tunnel) ... It is high on a smooth surface and lower on a rough surface ... Boundary layer is what you see when a car is in a wind tunnel and the smoke is flowing accross the surface of the hood or roof ... which is why rain drops on your hood are not whisked off at 55 mph ... On a smooth surface, air does not "cling" due to strong laminar flow ... If you were to powder coat your hood, the eddie currents in the air flow would cause a tumbling effect and hence the boundary layer is thinner and the laminar flow is closer to the surface ... SO in a smooth tube, IMO there is enough boundary layer on the surface of a smooth tube inside to not allow transmission of much heat PASSED the boundary layer into the laminar flow (high rate) ... Another thought, if plastic heat soaks, it is less conductive than aluminum so SURFACE HEAT will remain longer and internalized in a heat soaked box (after you drive light to light or hot lap at the track) ... any intake will heat soak it is inevitable, what we want to know is HOW FAST does it cool off and how bad does it soak ... To me a true definition of a CAI is one that pulls adequate air, is the coolest possible in our GM gen 3 design constraints, and if it heat soaks, is able to cool-down quickly to allow good PE tables pitched by the PCM ... In my experience, the number 1 CAI is the Pro Dyno Pro Cold (the only one of it's kind) and the AEM brute force ONLY because it REMOVES THE PLATE THE OEM BOX SITS ON TO ALLOW A LARGE BOTTOM AREA TO PULL FROM ... A filter on a NA motor will pull from the least path of resistance and to me, it seems as if the AEM would pull a lot of volume from beneath the filter ... IMO the worst CAI's for heat soak and their ability to cool are the stagnant open elements like the ones where bottom oem plate is retained ... (You know which ones) ... The attempt to block off that corner and create a seperate environment (with hood closed) to me is a bit behind the idea of a true CAI ... The increased volume is negated by the hotter air whether via heat soak or the air around the element being stagnant/pulled from the nookes and crannies around the box from the hot engine bay ... There is definite merit to a "still" air box up to the point to where the system starts suffering heat soak (a still bow will have better response and torque at part throttle in lower RPM's) ... In an open element, the filter is not insulated and cools faster as long as it has a somewhat of an ambient air source, and as long as the tuned length is not grossly large, it will have decent off-idle response ... I was part of the testing of the Pro Cold and it satisfies most all the variables I talk about ... However it locates a conical filter down near the horn which in a truck many people don't like depending on what the truck is used for ... I have seen the highest gains posted from the Pro Cold, but not one person talking about them on this board ... The AEM has a great core design IMO that can be made wicked with a little modding ... Many points made here are arguable, but remember, think of the application in the SS VHO and not CAI's in general ... Once you apply the environment of the SS VHO design, you can see what makes a CAI viable or not ... It's not always about what things seem to be as priorities ... The OEM box BTW is darn near dead-on if it didn't have a panel filter mounted at a steep angle, had more inner area, and pulled from a much larger opening in the fender ... The outlaw and the volant make good upgrades to the oem box no question, but don't rule-out the open elements until you have been able to TIME how long it takes for your still box to heat soak ... The principles of the still box are great as long as you keep it cool so IAT doesn't suffer ... IMO sorry for tossing my opinions about being so new, but I thought they might be interesting to chew on ... 11H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11H Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 I also have seen multiple posts about the AEM killing mileage ... seeing that people are pulling off good 1/4 mile times with them, I can't help but think that at part throttle the tuned length is either waaaay off or it is pulling so much more air that the pcm is enriching to the point to where tuning is needed to bring things back in-line ... It makes no sense as to why mileage would suffer in the AEM ... LTFT's are LTFT's and if they run too rich, to me, to the point to where you see a 3 or 4 mpg drop, codes would be getting tossed quick and abundantly ... I just bought an AEM and will be throwing it on soon (I have the cotton gauze 4 layer and the dry syn filter to try as well) .. I have several Pro Colds and they are a bit cumbersome to maintain the filter as I hate either removing the whole kit or lying on my back ... They also have some issues with touching the inner fender well depending on how people install them and on what vehicle ... 11H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 thats a lot of reading... can I get a cut down version of that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11H Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 thats a lot of reading... can I get a cut down version of that?? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL ... C'Mon reading even if it doesn't seem aggreeable is still a healthy thing ... Bottom line, I guess is many of the opinions of cai's on this site are interesting and some need clarification ... I am still mostly hung on a few main items that I am trying to decipher ... 1. A true cai is one with an enclosed element ... (I have that one worked out) 2. The AEM suffers from poor fuel economy ... (I am stumped because there would be other symptoms if it's as bad as some claim) 3. A metal tube is not as good as a plastic tube ... (I have that one worked out) 4. The rest was merely tossed out there as fodder to chew on and to energize some thinking ... To me forums are a give and take, I have been taking in info about my new rig, so I thought I would give a little ... 11H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VHO_Tek Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 thats a lot of reading... can I get a cut down version of that?? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heat....BAD. Cold....GOOD. Most "cold air" kits.....BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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