r8rs4lf Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Well GM is in a hard place right know, but on GM side the are paying workers through the nose cause of the unions. Those workers are making a fortune and dont have to bust their ass. I have been to alot of the plants in Detroit, if you ever seen how easy their jobs are and how much they make its unreal. One of the plants I visited there was a worker sleeping on a bunch of boxes making about $25/$28hr SLEEPING and they could not tell him to work cause there was something wrong with the line where he was stationed, he could have more to another area and been doing something but the union says he not suppose to. I went the the plant where they build the 3800 engine and this one ladies job was to connect the 3 spark plug wires to the plugs ( the wires where already laying across the engine, it was real hard work for $25hr so hard she was actually leaning back in her chair with her feet proped up . These people dont have to lift anything heavy (all their tools for the job are on pulleys that hang from the ceiling. They always want more money and benifits and work easier, hell I wish I had that just for having to fix their screw ups and I did see alot of assembly line screw ups when I worked at the dealer and these people cant even be held accountable for the mistakes. So yea GM is just trying to get out of paying out so much for so little work. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not to say that two wrongs make a right, but what is the difference between these people you speak that make $25.00/hour and the GM executives that make millions doing nothing? Not to mention all the perks they recieve. I'm a union man and the thing that I hear all the time is people complaining about what we/they make per hour, but would it be a different story if it was you on the line at GM on the verge of this? What about their families? I know you probably don't care and I don't say this to be a hard @$$, but what do you care what these people make? Do you really think it's their fault GM is going down? Do you think if they made $10.00/hour GM would be able to pull itself from under? I doubt it because GM would just continue to take and take! I mean, take our trucks for example, don't you think GM has cut some corners to make it? The quality just isn't there and if it were the public would notice it and purchase more of their vehicles. One quick example is look at our seats. Why leather only in some places? Granted leather is not such a big deal in a so called performance truck, but for $40K, c'mon............ As for people not doing certain jobs, there is a reason for that and it's called job security. It has nothing to do with being lazy or not helping your fellow employee. We have the same thing on my job. I will not perform any other persons job! Why you ask? Very simple, if the employer sees that I can perform his/her job, then who is to say that the employer will not try to do away with that particular job come contract time? That would be one less job for us and what I mean by us, I mean the American workforce. Late- Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Well GM is in a hard place right know, but on GM side the are paying workers through the nose cause of the unions. Those workers are making a fortune and dont have to bust their ass. I have been to alot of the plants in Detroit, if you ever seen how easy their jobs are and how much they make its unreal. One of the plants I visited there was a worker sleeping on a bunch of boxes making about $25/$28hr SLEEPING and they could not tell him to work cause there was something wrong with the line where he was stationed, he could have more to another area and been doing something but the union says he not suppose to. I went the the plant where they build the 3800 engine and this one ladies job was to connect the 3 spark plug wires to the plugs ( the wires where already laying across the engine, it was real hard work for $25hr so hard she was actually leaning back in her chair with her feet proped up . These people dont have to lift anything heavy (all their tools for the job are on pulleys that hang from the ceiling. They always want more money and benifits and work easier, hell I wish I had that just for having to fix their screw ups and I did see alot of assembly line screw ups when I worked at the dealer and these people cant even be held accountable for the mistakes. So yea GM is just trying to get out of paying out so much for so little work. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I saw the same thing at IBM in Austin - in 1998 I was touring the assembly floor (IBM PCs) with a couple Tivoli engineers - a couple chassis actually hit the floor when the lunch bell rang, it was pretty pathetic! Mr. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOB47 Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Well GM is in a hard place right know, but on GM side the are paying workers through the nose cause of the unions. Those workers are making a fortune and dont have to bust their ass. I have been to alot of the plants in Detroit, if you ever seen how easy their jobs are and how much they make its unreal. One of the plants I visited there was a worker sleeping on a bunch of boxes making about $25/$28hr SLEEPING and they could not tell him to work cause there was something wrong with the line where he was stationed, he could have more to another area and been doing something but the union says he not suppose to. I went the the plant where they build the 3800 engine and this one ladies job was to connect the 3 spark plug wires to the plugs ( the wires where already laying across the engine, it was real hard work for $25hr so hard she was actually leaning back in her chair with her feet proped up . These people dont have to lift anything heavy (all their tools for the job are on pulleys that hang from the ceiling. They always want more money and benifits and work easier, hell I wish I had that just for having to fix their screw ups and I did see alot of assembly line screw ups when I worked at the dealer and these people cant even be held accountable for the mistakes. So yea GM is just trying to get out of paying out so much for so little work. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That kind of stuff certainly does happen. I've seen it too. The union has gotten too strong in many instances. Lazy people, regardless of union or not, should be fired and the union is to blame for protecting them. If you think you see a lot of assembly line screw ups now, just imagine if the workers were making say $10.00-12.00 per hour. There would be no reason to stay there and the turnover would be incredible. The number of mistakes would go through the roof. They'd be hard pressed to get anything good out the door. What they need to do is find a way to instill some pride in a job well done in all of their people. People will work like dogs for you if they have pride in what they do and feel respected. Who doesn't want more money, benefits and easier work. If I offered you twice the salary and benefits for half the work would you turn it down? 99% of people wouldn't. What if I told you I'd give you all that and a $1,000,000 bonus after 30 years. Then after 30 years of you doing the work I said "Oh, I'm sorry, I don't have that bonus I said I'd give you. I did, but I spent it on myself instead." Think you'd be upset? That's what these corporations are doing to people with our governments blessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 You have to remember that GM promised these packages to its' people. I agree that some of it is not cost effective, but it's what they promised they would do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> While it may be true... those retired employees, and those heading for retirement won't have much of a benefits package left if GM goes belly up. Who do they think will continue to support the benefits package if GM goes under? Whats more of a problem? 113,000 employees in north america getting a $140,000 severnce package now or 113,000 of the next generation not being employed?? GM's collapse would be devestating to american industry if it happend... I'd rather see these people get "short changed" on their retirement than watch the ripple effect thru our economy if GM takes a fall. As for the $140,000 not being enough... I say tough shit. People who rely on a company or the government to pay for their twilight years are short sighted IMO. Didnt' anyone pay attention to Enron? At 22 I started a SEP/IRA at my job b/c I don't want to rely on anyone but myself to support myself later in life. I have diversified investments in money market accounts, mutual funds, my IRA, in addition to my wifes 401k... the days of being able to rely on your employer of the government to take care of you when you retire are long gone... I'm a long ways from retirement, but I have the foresight to plan now. On a last note... with GM making these moves it really puts them on the road to recovery IMO... and I'm enjoying that "junk stock" I bought a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 You and I are very like-minded here. No one "owes" anybody else a future, or a living, or a retirement. Down here they have a saying, "Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered". Mr. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r8rs4lf Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 As for the $140,000 not being enough... I say tough shit. People who rely on a company or the government to pay for their twilight years are short sighted IMO. Didnt' anyone pay attention to Enron? At 22 I started a SEP/IRA at my job b/c I don't want to rely on anyone but myself to support myself later in life. I have diversified investments in money market accounts, mutual funds, my IRA, in addition to my wifes 401k... the days of being able to rely on your employer of the government to take care of you when you retire are long gone... I'm a long ways from retirement, but I have the foresight to plan now. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's very easy for you to say "tough shit" when you are not in their shoes. I wonder if you would have the same attitude if it were someone you were related to working for GM in that very same situation? There is a big difference between the way we save now as compared to 30+ years ago. We now have the advantage of seeing all of the bullshit these companies are doing to screw with workers where it wasn't like that before. We can now make provision for our futures since we see a need to. Planning for our own future is or at least should be at the top of everyones lists these days. Things were ALOT different back then. These people who may or may not be dependant on what GM offers them for their years of service deserve to be treated with the very same respect that they gave GM for over 30+ years. That's great that you have your investments, mutual blah, blah, blah, IR blah, blah, blah, but that wasn't the general thinking way back then. Back then workers had a relationship with the employer, now it's all about how companies can cut costs at the expense of their employee's health insurance, salary, retirement, etc..... I mean your stating an example (Enron) that just happened not too long ago, we're talking about 30 years ago. Late- Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WidowKiss Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 To clarify some things for you guys cause you all aren't reading everything very throughly. I will also share some insight into things you don't all know. Today's announcement is for HOURLY employees only. Salaried employee programs haven't been finalized yet. Since both my parents work at Delphi I have access to information before it goes public (if at all). - Special Attrition Program at GM and Delphi offers $35k for normal or early voluntary retirements retroactive to October 1, '05. - A special voluntary pre-retirement option for GM and Delphi employees with at least 27 yrs but less than 30 provides $2,800 (27) to $2,900 (29) gross monthly wages, until 30 years of credited service. Upon which they must retire. Eligibility requires 27 yrs prior to 7/1/06. - Baltimore Assembly, Lansing Craft Center, Linden, Muncie, and Oklahoma City the same pre-retirement option is available but with a 26 yr at $2,750 gross a month addition. - A Delphi employee accepting any of the Special Attrition Programs have the option of retiring from GM (considered a flowback employee for purposes of retirement) or Delphi. - GM employees with 10 or more yrs of senority will have the option of a one time buyout ($140,000) to sever all ties to GM and Delphi, including health care and other post-retirement benefits. Vested Pension benefits will NOT be impacted. a. Same as above but employees with less than 10 yrs have a $70,000 buy out option. - GM commited 5,000 postions to Delphi flowback employees by Sept. 1, '07. - Keep in mind this is for the agreement w/ UAW, Delphi, and GM. It's still subject to approval by the courts due to Delphi's bankruptcy filing. - The people that chose the buyouts get to keep their pensions. I just want to reiterate this. The only thing they loose is the chance at full retirement and the benefits under Delphi or GM. - Most won't take the buyout (unless their spouse has decent health care coverage) and will want to flow back to GM since some believe that in the long term...Delphi's health care coverage won't last for years. So in closing... my folks are waiting for the salaried program to be announced before they make a decision (still the contract is up Sept. of '07 so they have plenty of time to run the numbers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOB47 Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 You have to remember that GM promised these packages to its' people. I agree that some of it is not cost effective, but it's what they promised they would do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> While it may be true... those retired employees, and those heading for retirement won't have much of a benefits package left if GM goes belly up. Who do they think will continue to support the benefits package if GM goes under? Whats more of a problem? 113,000 employees in north america getting a $140,000 severnce package now or 113,000 of the next generation not being employed?? GM's collapse would be devestating to american industry if it happend... I'd rather see these people get "short changed" on their retirement than watch the ripple effect thru our economy if GM takes a fall. As for the $140,000 not being enough... I say tough shit. People who rely on a company or the government to pay for their twilight years are short sighted IMO. Didnt' anyone pay attention to Enron? At 22 I started a SEP/IRA at my job b/c I don't want to rely on anyone but myself to support myself later in life. I have diversified investments in money market accounts, mutual funds, my IRA, in addition to my wifes 401k... the days of being able to rely on your employer of the government to take care of you when you retire are long gone... I'm a long ways from retirement, but I have the foresight to plan now. On a last note... with GM making these moves it really puts them on the road to recovery IMO... and I'm enjoying that "junk stock" I bought a year ago. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You and I are very like-minded here. No one "owes" anybody else a future, or a living, or a retirement. Down here they have a saying, "Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered". Mr. P. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dylan-- My wife and I have also invested well over the years because we thought this or something like this might happen. Many, many people didn't and still don't based on the promises of their employers. Shortsighted, I agree, but in my book a promise is a promise. Unless of course you're rich enough to get away with it. Mr. P-- I agree with you also, nobody "owes" me anything. That's why I have always depended on myself. Up here we have a saying. " the only thing worse than a thief is a liar." GM and many other large and small companies are both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Dylan-- My wife and I have also invested well over the years because we thought this or something like this might happen. Many, many people didn't and still don't based on the promises of their employers. Shortsighted, I agree, but in my book a promise is a promise. Unless of course you're rich enough to get away with it. Mr. P-- I agree with you also, nobody "owes" me anything. That's why I have always depended on myself. Up here we have a saying. " the only thing worse than a thief is a liar." GM and many other large and small companies are both. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't entirely disagree with you... people getting shorted on their "promised" retirement sucks. No one wants to plan their lives based on one scenario only to find out that the plan isn't going to work out. But like I said earlier... whats worse? Option A: current workers get $140,000 and have to figure out how to make that work for retirement, or even delay their rretirement to make ends meet. Option B: current workers continue to recieve benefits for as long as GM can afford to stay afloat, but eventually the financial burden drags GM further down and forces the eventual dismanteling of a corporation that employs 113,00 people domestically... the loss of jobs creating a severe drain on the american economy which spreads to car dealerships, service and repair facilities, aftermarket manufactures, etc. The ripple of this collapse wouldn't just be limited to the automotive field either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04CHASE Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 i smell an E-Fight brewing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 ... Mr. P-- I agree with you also, nobody "owes" me anything. That's why I have always depended on myself. Up here we have a saying. " the only thing worse than a thief is a liar." GM and many other large and small companies are both. Totally agree - what matters is that a person or organization will actually follow through on their contract comittments. You trust that the other party will hold-up their end of a contract, when they don't the repercussions are usually very serious. When I look at the big picture myself I can trace a lot of troubles back to not adhering to this very idea (keeping your committments) - failure to keep committments to quality, or keep committments to warranty, or committments to employees, or etc. If one is not able or does not intend to make good on their end the erosion of trust will catch-up to you eventually, no matter how big or small you are. The good thing to see in all this is the reaffirmation that consumers and investors are at large basically good people, they want nothing to do with organizations that won't/can't make good on their end of a deal, no matter what it was about... Mr. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peerson Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 I just have to say how proud I am to be associated with this forum! Even though this issue has many "sides", and there is alot of passion, EVERYONE has remained respectful of each other's opinions. None of the other forums that I belong to are anywhere near this civil. This topic would have been "closed" after the first one or two opinions were posted. And, the "name-calling" would have begun in the first post! Now, I have my own opinions in this matter. And, Working for the largest consumer-goods, manufacturer in the world, I KNOW that labor costs are INSIGNIFICANT when related to total delivered costs. It's just easy for these large companies to cut jobs. It's only temporary anyway. For some reason, "reorganizing" instills confidence in investors (who are basically lemmings) and as soon as stock prices begin to rebound, GM will begin to invest capital and increase their workforce again. It's all about the stock price. NOT about building the best quality automobile. And, loyalty from the company has been dead for awhile, now. G'day! T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxnewxname1 Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Now I work at the Lordstown Plant that is currently making the Cobalts. Now just recently the sent a senoirity list around, and about half of the plant has 27 or more yrs. The were like 600 with 30 plus. Shit some even have 38-40yrs in. Now GM is wanting to get them out so that these people that are sitting in the Jobs banks, or that are sitting at home on layoff can come in and take these open jobs. I cannot understand that if you have worked 30 yrs and cannot retire, you must have really blew your damn money. Now I can understand if like someone like myself started really young and am not able to retire at the age of 50, but if you are like 60 + and still cannot retire with 30+ yrs then you should what is a few more yrs going to do for you. NOTHING. most of these people have really cake jobs and work a ton of overtime and are making 100 grand +. This is BULLCRAP. GET OUT.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan06SS Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 I just have to say how proud I am to be associated with this forum! Even though this issue has many "sides", and there is alot of passion, EVERYONE has remained respectful of each other's opinions. None of the other forums that I belong to are anywhere near this civil. This topic would have been "closed" after the first one or two opinions were posted. And, the "name-calling" would have begun in the first post! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm always impressed with how level this site stays... unless of course a Titan owner comes over talkin' smack... then all hell breaks loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterp Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 ... most of these people have really cake jobs and work a ton of overtime and are making 100 grand +. This is BULLCRAP. GET OUT.... I'm not there to see it in person, but the more I hear the more it sounds like management could be optimized a whole lot there. But you can't fault the workers, they are just working the system, if GM had a better grip on its management problems these situations would not be tolerated or allowed to exist. Mr. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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