The United States Of Toyota

[SSThunder]

IMO the big 3 are doing better. I've also read articles about Toy doing worse as far as quality goes. I think too many people buy into the "great quality" deal. In the past this was true but it has changed. My wife's honda accord is a decent car. The engine is probably the best part as it still runs pretty strong after 165K miles. The bad thing about it, is the little things that are going wrong. Right now the lights for the door locks/power windows are out. So are the light for the gears(PRN321) as are the lights for the steering wheel buttons(music and cruise control). Also the low fuel light doesn't work any more and the repair shop said the fuel pump has to be replaced for this to work again(WTF ) One of the cats went out and cost an arm and a leg to replace(cat was like $800). Now some other thing is going out and it's going to cost $350 or so to get that fixed. The engine still runs strong but the little stuff not working really gets on my nerves. I personally buy what I like and I don't trust all the "great quality" talk because times have changed. GM just needs to step up and design better looking cars. Most of their cars don't apeal to me or the wife but I still hold out hope GM will do better.

[jbaker]

I have two opinions or thoughts that I'd like to toss out here...

(Edit - well, actually there are a ton of opinions in here)

 

On the matter of quality - I agree that quality, both for foreign and domestic, and for individual auto makers goes through an ebb and flow cycle. There are likely many things that influence how quickly each company transitions through the resulting final output quality.

 

I would like to point out that there is a difference between "Quality Control" and "Quality Assurance" and I think it is relevant to this thread. QC is a defined set of processes used to determine whether a particular product at meets a predetermined minimum acceptable level of quality. If it passes it goes out. If it doesn't pass, it..whatever. QA is every piece of an organization and its employees that goes into 'assuring' that what gets created is of the highest quality possible. The more effective a QA approach is, the fewer unacceptable products are identified in QC. I guess I'm just trying to say that there is a whole lot that goes into a quality product. Heck, even a companies ability to have happy, satisfied workers influences QA and the bottomline of an organization. I address these matters frequenty and right now I would oversimplify this as QC is a specific operation, QA is an entire attitude or environment.

 

Here's the angle that I think Toyota has had - they have done a better job at acknowledging the importance of the entire process. Bottom line - they were smarter and more innovation and business savy before the avg american company. Traditionally, large domestic companies have not been very nimble, and the slowness to react, IMO, created many of the issues through the 80's-90's w/ regards to quality and profit.

 

After my mini-novel above (sorry for that, btw, but I'm going to be too lazy to go up and edit / revise - I have work to do! ) Personally, I think the purchase of a vehicle has squat to do with patriotism and pride and respect for US workers. This is a global marketplace and consumers should 'vote' on the best companies by buying their products or services. US consumers buying Japanese cars is what drove the big 3 to get their acto together. Blindly giving a company one's patronage leads to that company being stale, bloated and ignorant w/ regards to (necessary) change. And one last thing - people are going to lose jobs as products are either assembled off-shore or by robots. The thing we need to do and embrace is training those employees to be the ones overseeing those robots or offshore workers.

 

Sorry for the long post. Here goes.

Edited October 4, 2007 by jbaker (see edit history)

[HiTechCustoms]

lol that made my day! another person who's never met me but knows my life story! good to be american!

 

Dont try and switch up your tactics to ours and say that us mocking you "made your day"....you know it gets you mad,and I do know you based on all your fake inteligent smart ass one liners or replys to everyone,your always trying to bust someone,or embarass them.I have seen you apoligize to Mr.P when you tried to put him on blast in the racemesh thread,and he wouldnt put up with your cankled ass coments,(your elephant knees your hiding with your capri shorts)Most of us our loyal to GM and obviously you are loyal to consumer reports opinion and resale value,and better Jap quality,and blah blah blah. I think all that KISSMYSILVSS is saying is on a scale of 1-10 of being a loyal American....your a 3 which is why your saying that your still a good American....you right Jeremy

[Oo p0op oO]

[jbaker]

Seems that the quality of opinion and discussion here can vary a heck of a lot more than the quality of the vehicles being discussed.

[rivierakid55]

Dont try and switch up your tactics to ours and say that us mocking you "made your day"....you know it gets you mad,and I do know you based on all your fake inteligent smart ass one liners or replys to everyone,your always trying to bust someone,or embarass them.I have seen you apoligize to Mr.P when you tried to put him on blast in the racemesh thread,and he wouldnt put up with your cankled ass coments,(your elephant knees your hiding with your capri shorts)Most of us our loyal to GM and obviously you are loyal to consumer reports opinion and resale value,and better Jap quality,and blah blah blah. I think all that KISSMYSILVSS is saying is on a scale of 1-10 of being a loyal American....your a 3 which is why your saying that your still a good American....you right Jeremy

 

can you please stop stalking me? its gettin old already. and you have no clue about what mr. p and myself have talked about in regards to racemesh. why dont you ask him since you know so much?

[2006_superado]

It doesn't matter. If someone wants to justifty something, in their eyes, it can be done. No matter what the numbers say -- they can be toyed around with... 'yeah, well mine came with this....'

 

I don't see how you can say the American car companies are inferior to Taiwaneze. There are so many variables to enter in the equation. I'm a fairly big guy, that doesn't fit well into little dinky tin cans. When I look at buying a car, I'm looking at bigger cars, without the optional shoe horn to get me into it. When I can get a V-8 as well for approximately the same price, well, that just makes good sense to me.

 

But to be completely honest -- just the way you never looked at a comparable Impala or any other American car, I didn't look at any imports.

 

And, I never will. See, KissMySilvSS had it right. In the 70s Toyota came into the automarket world, and they were frowned upon. But their image changed in just over 30 years. In the 80s, maybe the American cars were not as good as the foreigns.... But in another 10 years, they may not be around to compete -- GM finally reported a profit, Ford lost money again, Daimler - Chrysler is looking for someone to buy out them. If we don't keep our business here at home, then what happens to them?

and riviera, it's funny you replied to everyone else, but when i corrected you mis-qouting my post and proved my point, you ignored that one completley?. if you wanted to buy the honda based on looks alone, that i could undertand, it's not my cup of tea but to eace his own. but when you try to make it seem like it was a better financial decision or made more sense as far as quality goe's.. thats where it becomes a little hard to swallow.

 

basicaly all i was trying to prove is in the end your decision to buy a honda was no worst then if you would have bought a domestic, but no better either. and in the global market, if more people would open there minds to realize america now has some competitive products out there, at less cost, with more warranty.. well then we might actualy help our own economy instead of japan's. while at the same time not affecting ourselfs by buying an inferior product, since the gap is now closing.

 

IMO the big 3 are doing better. I've also read articles about Toy doing worse as far as quality goes. I think too many people buy into the "great quality" deal. In the past this was true but it has changed. My wife's honda accord is a decent car. The engine is probably the best part as it still runs pretty strong after 165K miles. The bad thing about it, is the little things that are going wrong. Right now the lights for the door locks/power windows are out. So are the light for the gears(PRN321) as are the lights for the steering wheel buttons(music and cruise control). Also the low fuel light doesn't work any more and the repair shop said the fuel pump has to be replaced for this to work again(WTF ) One of the cats went out and cost an arm and a leg to replace(cat was like $800). Now some other thing is going out and it's going to cost $350 or so to get that fixed. The engine still runs strong but the little stuff not working really gets on my nerves. I personally buy what I like and I don't trust all the "great quality" talk because times have changed. GM just needs to step up and design better looking cars. Most of their cars don't apeal to me or the wife but I still hold out hope GM will do better.

except i like the impala

Edited October 6, 2007 by 2006_SUPERADO (see edit history)

[CoolBlueSS]

I've said this before, many times, so I'll say it again. First, I don't care how many factories Toyota and Nissan build here, it is, was, and always will be, a Japanese company. It does not help our global economy, or standing, one bit. Besides, they are not built here, they are assembled here with Japanese parts built by Japanese workers. Not badmouthing Jap cars, because Lexus and Infinity make some of the finest cars in the world. Would I ever buy one? Probably not.

 

Second, the quality and the level of customer service has drastically improved with domestic car companies in the last 20 years. Let me emphasize DRASTICALLY. The proof is in warranty repairs. The warranty repair rate had steadily dropped over the last 20 years, moreso over the last 10. Customer service is night and day. Alot of it depends on the dealer, and the factories are trying to get more of a handle on that. Who's to blame? The Japanese. They caught the American companies sleeping at the switch, and by the time we responded it was almost too late. Now we have families buying Toyota or Nissan because that's what their family drove. Just like years ago with Chevy, Ford, Buick, or whatever. People have to consider that these are mass produced mechanical objects tha do break and wear out. ALL OF THEM.

[cadillacbob]

Out of a job yet?

Keep buying foreign...

[mcwarren]

First paragraph of my original post edited out. It dealt with issues that are not related to the subject of this post and I feel that it overshowed the real message of my post which is below. I sincerely apologize to anyone that may have been offended by my comments in the edited paragraph, it was not my intent or style. Thanks to ItsJac for putting this in proper perpestive.

 

I made my living repairing cars for various automobile manufacturers during the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and into the 2000's. I have worked for GM, Chrysler, Ford, Rambler, American Motors, Kaiser Jeep, Datsun/Nissan, Subaru and Toyota dealerships. I never was able to buy into the Japanese myth that their vehicle quality was superior to "Made in the USA by a USA Company". I have worked on them all and they all have pistons that go up and down and crankshafts that go 'round and 'round (well okay there's that freaky Mazda Wankle thing). There are trim differences and price level differences from model to model that suit individual tastes or preferences and that is why we buy Ford's or Chevy's and, oh yeah, thanks to Consumer Reports some send their bucks to Japan.

 

The real issue here is that Consumer Reports and copycat automotive journalists have sold a couple of generations of Americans on the fallacy that Japanese cars are better than American cars. I wouldn't be surprised that sometime in the future we are made aware of the "Mother of all Conspiracies", being the Japanese auto industry's influence over the American consumer via Consumer Reports.

 

I am genuinely disappointed and saddened about the damage done to the American Business Climate and the American economy of the staggering amount of money that hard working mostly Patriotic Americans sent to Japan after their being duped into believing that "Made in Japan" (don't give me that bull about Japanese assembly/mfg. plants on U.S. soil) being better than 'Made in the U.S.A.

 

What would John Wayne drive? Would you answer GM or Toyota? Quoted below from an article on John Wayne is the answer.

 

"Down at Newport Beach, Wayne also makes it livable for the most number of people. Out in Newport Bay bobs his boat, Wild Goose II. Lesser men would have a yacht; Wayne's craft is a converted minesweeper. His house overflows with memorabilia and sentimental tributes from institutions as far apart as Good Housekeeping and the U.S. Marines. His collection of Hopi Indian kachina dolls is probably second only to Barry Goldwater's. Though the family car appears to be a standard Pontiac station wagon, it was custom built." Quoted from

 

Just like "Where's the Beef" you can apply "Where's the Money go?"

 

Edited October 7, 2007 by mcwarren (see edit history)

[KissMySilvSS]

I was not going to post in this thread again because of the conflict, but I think mcwarren made some good points.

 

I will share why I am an American vehicle believer:

 

I am not a "war baby", I am 22 years old, born and raised in New York. I was born into a Chevrolet family because my Grandfather served in the South Pacific during WWII, he served in the Army Air Corps as a gunner on a B-25 Mitchell. When he returned from the war in 1945, he and his brother started a Chevrolet Oldsmobile dealership in their hometown of Camden, NY. They built a new building in the 70's under a grant from GM. The customers in Camden either bought a Chevy, a Ford, or a Dodge. To this day there has never been a foreign auto store there. Shortly after my Grandfather passed away in 1994, my Grandmother sold the business to my oldest uncle who had been operating as the dealer principal there since the late 80's.

 

My father and my oldest uncle Andy were partners in the Camden until about 1989 when we moved two hours north to Gouverneur, where my father started his own store. We started with Chevrolet Geo in 1990. Then Geo went under. Around 2000, we aquired Buick Pontiac Olds. We then aquired GMC truck in 2004. We have been very successful and have a close knit relationship with our customers who are also die hard American automobile buyers. We have a darn near 95% customer retention rate. We have many customers that work nearby for GM at the Massena Powertrain plant. To this day, there has never been a foreign auto store in Gouverneur, people buy American!

 

In addition to my father's store and my oldest uncle's store, my other uncle John also operates a Chevrolet Pontiac store in Groton, NY near Syracuse. My cousin (Uncle Andy's) son just opened up a store in Elkland, PA a few years ago and also does very well.

 

Anyways, I can remember growing up at the dealership in Camden. I was always in the showroom sitting in the Vette's and the Iroc-z's. I can remember one day someone pulled up with a Honda or Nissan. My Grandfather happened to be there doing something, I can't remember. I do remember that he met that customer at the door and politely told them that he was not interested in taking his vehicle in on trade. People can attack that statement if they want, but that was the way my Grandfather was. He lost many friends in Pearl Harbor and was a dedicated servicemen.

 

We live near Ft. Drum Army base. You know it drives me nuts when I see a GI or a GI's wife around Gouverneur or Watertown driving a foreign vehicle with an American flag sticker on the back window and a "support the troops" sticker. I just want to slap them. But I guess in a way, it is not their fault always.

 

Well, this is why I will always drive American, because of my Grandfather's loyalty to his service in the Army Air Corps and the loyalty that General Motors has shown to our family. We have all made a great living from this business and have been very fortunate to enjoy the perq's and I know the least I can do is drive a GM product whether I decide to carry on the family tradition of owning my own store when I graduate from college or decide to do something else.

 

Sincerely,

Teddy

[rivierakid55]

and riviera, it's funny you replied to everyone else, but when i corrected you mis-qouting my post and proved my point, you ignored that one completley?. if you wanted to buy the honda based on looks alone, that i could undertand, it's not my cup of tea but to eace his own. but when you try to make it seem like it was a better financial decision or made more sense as far as quality goe's.. thats where it becomes a little hard to swallow.

 

basicaly all i was trying to prove is in the end your decision to buy a honda was no worst then if you would have bought a domestic, but no better either. and in the global market, if more people would open there minds to realize america now has some competitive products out there, at less cost, with more warranty.. well then we might actualy help our own economy instead of japan's. while at the same time not affecting ourselfs by buying an inferior product, since the gap is now closing.

except i like the impala

 

to start with superado i respond first to those that take personal pot shots at me without any basis. you did not do so as your obviously a sensible person. i am not a person who likes to be targeted as "anything" and do not take kindly to people who have no idea what morals i stand for and make they're decisions based on a few chat forum quotations.

 

all i was trying to point out superado was that a loaded accord and a loaded impala are very similar cars in price/fuel/accesories. like i said i dont think the accord is the best looking car. if you read my post i point that out. and yes i did misread your post about the lexus comparison. although ive sat in both an impala ltz and a lexus and i dont think the impala is as nice as the lexus. its nicer than my honda inside but the lexus is nicer than an impala imo.

 

i also think that if your friend paid the same for a 4cyl accord as you did for your loaded impala he paid too much. he numbers are out there. obviously financing and bartering have a great deal to do with that. I do have some friends in the car busincess and honda/toyota do far less price cutting to get the deal sold. they dont have to unfortunately as people will pay.

 

having been around enough different cars and reading all sorts of reports and talking with multiple mechanics i feel that the honda i purchased is the best investment in that segment. it isnt the best looking by any means. probably isnt the best performance wise. surely doesnt have as much room in certain areas. but overall i feel its the best bet. and i do agree that the gap has definately narrowed between the quality of american and import cars.

 

and for further clearing up when my wife and i were in the market for a new car last november we test drove the following cars

pontiac G6

mazda 6

honda accord

 

i actually like the interior on the pontiac better but after a few minutes of driving the interior was already starting to rattle which didnt suprise me since my own truck does this to some extent as have numerous other cars ive ridden in.

 

the mazda 6 had good power but it was noiseier than chit inside. felt very crude and was overpriced for what you got imo.

 

the honda felt more refined as far as road manners was concerned and had equivelant power. granted the inside should hardly be called leather with the vinyl like seating but everything has a shortfall. for this vehicle the primary concern was buying one that would have the least amount of upkeep and be the best investment in a few years. this matters to me after seeing the horrendous trade in value/private party sale value of the big3. (ive previously soldtraded in a dodge and 2 fords)

 

lastly this isnt directed at you at all but there's a reason why gm is offering 100k mile warranties now. THEY HAVE TO IF THEY WANT TO BE COMPETETIVE!

 

hopefully this clears up my point of view for you and anyone else. I appreciate that you didnt make this personal against me as some have done and realize that i did not do that to you as well.

[CoolBlueSS]

lastly this isnt directed at you at all but there's a reason why gm is offering 100k mile warranties now. THEY HAVE TO IF THEY WANT TO BE COMPETETIVE!

I partially disagree with this. They did this to try to pull some business in, but they are making a better product than in the past, as I stated in my previous post. I've been in this business for 22 years mostly at the dealership level, so I have seen this first hand. Numbers don't lie.

 

Before we bought our Tahoe back in 2003 my wife really liked the Lexus RX300. Till we drove one. It felt cheap, and I know it's not the top model, but I expected a little more. It felt much cheaper the the Tahoe. Also, when I worked aftermarket auto parts in the late 80s early 90s, we sold a ton of axle shafts, wheel hub bearings for imports. Hardly any for GM.

[mcwarren]

Post deleted, not relevant to subject.

Edited October 7, 2007 by mcwarren (see edit history)

[gixxerrider]

I have my 06 SS, 07 Hyundia accent 2000 GSXR600. I will drive what I can afford.