Winds Of Change........

[slowfive0]

Well, currently have a daily driven SS with a radix. Absolutely love it thus far. It runs 12.20's, gets acceptable gas mileage and tows/carries what I need it to. It handles pretty decent and does awesome in Michigans weather!

 

It needs a motor pretty soon and I've been all over the page on what to do with it. Basically two thoughts right now:

 

1) Put a turbo kit on a 370" motor or

2) do a big inch stroker with a TVS2300.

 

Problem is, I've already spent big money on a custom 3" stainless exhaust system and that is kind of swaying my judgement. To be honest, I think I might be pretty happy with a turbo. I have an amazing fabricator and I also have HP Tuners. I believe I can tune it and if I can't, I have friends in the business who can. Doing a large stroker with LSX block, good rotator and heads isn't exactly cheap. Add the blower kit (jackshaft drive) and 8rib pullies and other supporting equipment and the blower option gets very expensive!

 

I wanted to build a high 10 combo (good air) and maybe mid 11 combo in the heat. At this point, I don't care if I give up some performance and retain stock type drive ability. My biggest thing now is a near stock torque converter. I have a converter that flashes at 2800 and I HATE IT! I drive so much and this is such a heavy pig that it really sucks! Gas mileage is horrid in stop and go traffic and it has to go. This is where a turbo would really shine. Small cubes should be good on gas and converter can be relatively tight. When the boost kicks in, it will stall higher----lol!

 

I think if I put it down to dollars and cents, the turbo/370 (budget rebuild) will be cheaper.......Thoughts on this? I really could use some insight here as I need to make plans soon. Thanks guys.

[shawnss]

well i can't help you much as for the tvs goes. but i can tell you i sure like my front mount turbo set up. it seems to make good power and boost comes on pretty quick. i have my turbo matched pretty good for my stock 6.0. this winter i will be putting together my forged 370. Im not shooting for any world records or anything like that just something that runs good. it seems like you can put together a 370 for cheap compared to a LSX. so it really comes down to what yo want to lay down for cash. cause id say you couldn't put a lsx with a tvs together for less than 10K. lately i've seen quite a few turboed 370s laying down some nasty power.

[zippy]

If you do a turbo I would still do a 408. The cost difference between the 370 and 408 is pretty much only the cost of the crank. Your still looking at buying rods assuming you don't want to run stock rods, pistons, machine work, etc. Spend the small difference in the crank and you get alot more power when not in boost, more power at less boost, and much quicker spool times. A build like that isn't about what it is capable of, hell a 4.8L can make enough power to get an SSS into the low 11's with enough boost and still drive on the street. Another thing to consider is that at the track spool time really isn't going to matter since you'll launch in boost anyway, however on the street you will see a difference. A 408 with an 88mm turbo will run 10's and drive around town almost like stock if you pick your parts right. As for the Magnacharger your biggest cost is the blower. Between buying the blower, injectors, spacer, throttle body, throttle body inlet, and 8 rib kit you're talking 10 grand. Doing anything over 408 inch's will give you a small return for the money with that blower. The difference between the 427 and a 408 is small for the money. You can build a 408 for about half as much as a 427 and make within I'd say 30hp or so of the big motor. The big bore of the 427 helps in head flow and head choices, but I wouldn't say it's worth the cost. The choices are really more a style difference. A turbo setup with all the fixing's will near 10k by the time you're done with it with intercooler, turbo, piping, hoses, labor, etc, etc. Both engines will run near the same price if you build them right.

[slowfive0]

Thanks Zippy! You're absolutely right. For me, I think the best course of action will be to run things like they are until I have the money or break it. At that point, I can do the engine (408 sounds nice) and just run it NA if I don't have the dough for the rest.

 

Thoughts on the heads? I'd rather do them at that time if I can---Was leaning towards the TFS cathedral port design even though everyone touts the newer port design.....Still up in the air on that.....

 

If you do a turbo I would still do a 408. The cost difference between the 370 and 408 is pretty much only the cost of the crank. Your still looking at buying rods assuming you don't want to run stock rods, pistons, machine work, etc. Spend the small difference in the crank and you get alot more power when not in boost, more power at less boost, and much quicker spool times. A build like that isn't about what it is capable of, hell a 4.8L can make enough power to get an SSS into the low 11's with enough boost and still drive on the street. Another thing to consider is that at the track spool time really isn't going to matter since you'll launch in boost anyway, however on the street you will see a difference. A 408 with an 88mm turbo will run 10's and drive around town almost like stock if you pick your parts right. As for the Magnacharger your biggest cost is the blower. Between buying the blower, injectors, spacer, throttle body, throttle body inlet, and 8 rib kit you're talking 10 grand. Doing anything over 408 inch's will give you a small return for the money with that blower. The difference between the 427 and a 408 is small for the money. You can build a 408 for about half as much as a 427 and make within I'd say 30hp or so of the big motor. The big bore of the 427 helps in head flow and head choices, but I wouldn't say it's worth the cost. The choices are really more a style difference. A turbo setup with all the fixing's will near 10k by the time you're done with it with intercooler, turbo, piping, hoses, labor, etc, etc. Both engines will run near the same price if you build them right.

[slowfive0]

Also, what about compression ratio, stock block strength and "modified" stock blocks (i.e. extended sleeved blocks from ERL, etc)? Thanks again.

 

Basically, is the stock block strong enough for 10's in a daily driven heavy ass SS? And are the extended sleeves a good addition for the longer stroke/piston setup?

 

 

 

Thanks Zippy! You're absolutely right. For me, I think the best course of action will be to run things like they are until I have the money or break it. At that point, I can do the engine (408 sounds nice) and just run it NA if I don't have the dough for the rest.

 

Thoughts on the heads? I'd rather do them at that time if I can---Was leaning towards the TFS cathedral port design even though everyone touts the newer port design.....Still up in the air on that.....

 

 

[03JUSTIN]

flaco was making 1500+ on an 414 6,0 block

Edited November 21, 2011 by 03JUSTN (see edit history)

[slowfive0]

WOW!! Anyone know what kind of power it takes to go 10's at 5600lbs? I should be more then fine then

 

flaco was making 1500+ on an 414 6,0 iron block

 

 

[03JUSTIN]

750+

[slowfive0]

Cool, thanks.

 

750+

[Krambo]

Also, what about compression ratio, stock block strength and "modified" stock blocks (i.e. extended sleeved blocks from ERL, etc)? Thanks again.

 

Basically, is the stock block strong enough for 10's in a daily driven heavy ass SS? And are the extended sleeves a good addition for the longer stroke/piston setup?

 

The stock LQ4 GM blocks are plenty strong enough. Keep the bore under 0.030 over and it will be fine for 1kHP.

 

 

WOW!! Anyone know what kind of power it takes to go 10's at 5600lbs? I should be more then fine then

 

 

In our trucks (AWD), I am estimating 750 to the wheels with perfect conditions (no wheel slip etc.) for a 10.99.

 

Looking forward to watching another build...it sounds like you have the bug real bad!

[slowfive0]

This option is sounding better and better. Will be relatively budget and strong enough it sounds....

 

I have the bug really bad! For some reason (kind of sad really) I get more excited about this then my race car. I think because I drive this one daily and get so much more enjoyment out of it. Honestly, if I hadn't already got so deep into my car project I would sell it. Just too much money and time to waste at this point without seeing it through.....

 

For some reason, this decision (turbo vs blower) keeps rearing its ugly head and I'm all over the board as a result. I was talking to my builder this morning and we were discussing a recent encounter he had (on the street) where he ran up against a late model mustang with a pd blower (he has a big turbo). They were just screwing around, but he ended up having to play major catch up (not sure if he caught the guy before they shut it down) because in the short time that his car spooled up and came on, the pd blower mustang was gone. Important point to mention is the mustang probably runs 11's and the turbo car is wayyy quicker. At the track no big deal, spool up the turbo to where you want it and go! On the street, different story if you're not ready. Sigh....

 

The stock LQ4 GM blocks are plenty strong enough. Keep the bore under 0.030 over and it will be fine for 1kHP.

 

 

In our trucks (AWD), I am estimating 750 to the wheels with perfect conditions (no wheel slip etc.) for a 10.99.

 

Looking forward to watching another build...it sounds like you have the bug real bad!

[broke1]

If youre going to drive alot and MPG does play some factor,make sure you get the very best convertor possible.My low compression 408 w/ custom cam,CNC LS3 heads,60# injectors,and a 3200 stall PI multi disk(will flash 3500) gets the same average gas mileage as my stock LQ9 w/ stock stall did,14.5 mpg's.Of course thats driving reasonably.lol Even around town driving with the big stall had no effect on gas mileage in my big heavy truck.It could be that the 60's are a very efficent injector vs the stockers and im sure that the tune is part of it too.I think that most trucks are pushing the stock 6.0 a little hard so more tq gets it moving easier,not requiring much throttle has to help get better gas mileage.

 

Id imagine the biggest difference between a well setup bad ass blower and a well setup good turbo kit in driving manners would be that the turbo would more than likely net you better mpg's.Ive got a friend who has a 02 Silverado with bone stock 6 liter(stock cam/heads) with an intercooled STS kit(67mm turbo I think) and his truck makes 630rwhp and gets close to 25mpg!!

 

Another great thing about turbo's is you can usually run a lower stall convertor so drivability can improve.The thing ive noticed with most automatic turbo cars/trucks is that if you put in a nice $$$ stall convertor,you usually cannot tell it has a stall until you put your foot into the gas!1 of my Buick GN's with a 61mm turbo and 3200 stall PTC 9.5" non lockup convertor,drives STOCK until you lay into it..it drove very similar with a 3500 stall 7 disk PI convertor when the engine was stock w/ big turbo.Most every GN I have ever driven with the correct convertor in good working order has driven VERY close to stock.

 

Id think with a 408 with a turbo sized for 800hp-900hp,you could get away with a 2600-2800 stall easy,maybe even less...

 

Whatever you decide,it sounds like its gonna be 1 bad SOB for sure!

Edited November 24, 2011 by broke1 (see edit history)

[AKSSS]

You control where your turbo will come in be sizing you exhaust a/r where you need it. For example I am running a t76 with a .81ar exhaust on a 370. I can hit 15 psi around 3400-3500 rpm. If I wanted more top end out of my turbo I would just get a bigger a/r. The smaller the a/r the sooner it will spool, but the sooner it up choke up high. You just need to plan your build a little bit. Turbos are so adjustable. Just make sure you got/get the right setup.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Aksss (see edit history)

[slowfive0]

Thanks man. That was my thoughts too (low stall). I have a bunch of friends that run turbos (mostly cars) and they run low (numerically) gear sets and tight converters. Cruises at a nice low rpm on the hwy and when they turn it up, it stalls high enough to get into the sweet spot of the power band pretty much immediately! Of course torque is what does this and I would imagine a TVS2300 would active similar....

 

I'm getting pumped----probably going to be a 408 or 427 with some TFS cathedral port heads and a TVS2300 jackshaft blower. Turbos are still very possible as well. I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks for the input.

 

If youre going to drive alot and MPG does play some factor,make sure you get the very best convertor possible.My low compression 408 w/ custom cam,CNC LS3 heads,60# injectors,and a 3200 stall PI multi disk(will flash 3500) gets the same average gas mileage as my stock LQ9 w/ stock stall did,14.5 mpg's.Of course thats driving reasonably.lol Even around town driving with the big stall had no effect on gas mileage in my big heavy truck.It could be that the 60's are a very efficent injector vs the stockers and im sure that the tune is part of it too.I think that most trucks are pushing the stock 6.0 a little hard so more tq gets it moving easier,not requiring much throttle has to help get better gas mileage.

 

Id imagine the biggest difference between a well setup bad ass blower and a well setup good turbo kit in driving manners would be that the turbo would more than likely net you better mpg's.Ive got a friend who has a 02 Silverado with bone stock 6 liter(stock cam/heads) with an intercooled STS kit(67mm turbo I think) and his truck makes 630rwhp and gets close to 25mpg!!

 

Another great thing about turbo's is you can usually run a lower stall convertor so drivability can improve.The thing ive noticed with most automatic turbo cars/trucks is that if you put in a nice $$ stall convertor,you usually cannot tell it has a stall until you put your foot into the gas!1 of my Buick GN's with a 61mm turbo and 3200 stall PTC 9.5" non lockup convertor,drives STOCK until you lay into it..it drove very similar with a 3500 stall 7 disk PI convertor when the engine was stock w/ big turbo.Most every GN I have ever driven with the correct convertor in good working order has driven VERY close to stock.

 

Id think with a 408 with a turbo sized for 800hp-900hp,you could get away with a 2600-2800 stall easy,maybe even less...

 

Whatever you decide,it sounds like its gonna be 1 bad SOB for sure!

 

 

 

For sure!!!! I've seen a ton of combos that weren't right and drove like chit! Also, seen a ton of combos that were amazing!!!! I've always been pretty intimidated to do one of these combos as a result. Way easy to get it wrong. The other thing that really sucks to get right with a turbo (IMO) is the converter. And when you do get it right, as soon as you turn up the boost a decent amount, you're back to blowing through the converter, etc.......But when everything is right......

 

You control where your turbo will come in be sizing you exhaust a/r where you need it. For example I am running a t76 with a .81ar exhaust on a 370. I can hit 15 psi around 3400-3500 rpm. If I wanted more top end out of my turbo I would just get a bigger a/r. The smaller the a/r the sooner it will spool, but the sooner it up choke up high. You just need to plan your build a little bit. Turbos are so adjustable. Just make sure you got/get the right setup.