SSilverado60 Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 The only difference you will really notice with a kit that replaces just the rotors will be brake fade. They will not fade as easily because of the increased surface area, and the fact that they are drilled will also help out a lot as well. But you still have the same weak caliper trying to squeeze the pads together. It does make things look a lot better though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdaly Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 The original rotors where 12's in the front and 12 3/4's in the rear, the jump to 14 front and rear is noticable even to the average bad driver. But, if you only have a thousand dollars to spend I would advise you not invest in brakes. I would also advise you get more money to sink into your SS. You might want to rewrite your last post. why, i agree with him brakes are kinda pointless... or atleast, IMO because the kits u describe here are not going to provide that much better braking, i would advise the LPE brembo system, or whatever it is they have... The original question was related to opinions , not advice. #1. Statement was, "noticeable to even to the average bad driver." ( insinuates that those who said they felt no difference are bad drivers ) #2. Statement was, "if you only have a thousand to spend...." ( who said anything about budget limits ? ) #3. Statement was, "I would also advise you get more money...." ( again, other than "bang for the buck" money is not the issue. ) Anyway guys, maybe I'm off base but those comments just don't sit well with me. Sounds too much like my Dad. Free Way Flyer? I think your original question was about the Bear EP1 upgrade and does anyone know anything about them? Nevertheless, I have never seen anyone critique a response to an opinion question. I am guessing you will have something write about this too. I will try to avoid posting a response to any thread you start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m396 #00-011 Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 The only difference you will really notice with a kit that replaces just the rotors will be brake fade. They will not fade as easily because of the increased surface area, and the fact that they are drilled will also help out a lot as well. But you still have the same weak caliper trying to squeeze the pads together. It does make things look a lot better though Correct, with more surface area, they can take and disperse for heat. This in turn, will keep the brake fluid cooler, which will introduce fade if not kept under a certain temp. However, drilled rotors provide little to worse performance. Holes drilled into a rotor after the casting process, will only weaken a rotor and create many small stress cracks between the drilled holes. Slotted on the other hand, will not do this. The only "real" holed rotors are porsche rotors that have the holes formed into the rotor during the casting process. As far as the earlier statements by Bdaly, increasing the rotor size is evident to even average bad driver. Well, this might be more apperent to a bad driver that uses his brakes more than a better driver. "think rotors: made of special steel alloy, MOV' IT ® rotors are all vented with cast not drilled holes. that means no tension, no cracking, no splash shield required, and the perfect ventilation for optimum braking. special slots make the surface area of the ventilation system much larger than in conventional rotors, keeping tem-peratures down and durability up." Movit Brakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FwyFlyr Posted December 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Thanks, SSilverado60 / m396#00-011 That's the type of responce I was looking for. Well stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plwtwo Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Has anyone noticed that our SS rear rotors are bigger than our fronts? the rears are 13" or 330mm, the fronts are around 11.5", GM screwed up again, consider this the front does 70-78% of the work...... I'm putting APracing's kit on mine, I've used them a few times in the past, I currently have them on my H2, and they fit and work. PLUS they come with dust seals, some of the others don't......make sure what ever brand you decide on, that they have dust seals. My AP's will be here the first week in January! Brakepros.com or stillen.com for the Apracing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detjoe Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 I'm putting APracing's kit on mine, I've used them a few times in the past, I currently have them on my H2, and they fit and work. PLUS they come with dust seals, some of the others don't...... Can we see the pics? Maybe could be added to the how to section and make you famous. joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDave Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 The brakes on my 68000 mile 1991 Silverado were finally needing replacement so I trashed all of the stock components and rebuilt the brakes myself. I put on PowerSlot rotors (stock size) seen on Two Guys Garage, with Hawk Performance pads, factory rebuilt calipers, and new braided stainless lines. Used my Phoenix Systems injector to flush and bleed the entire system. They were a big improvement, but I didn't think they were super bad or anything. Until a friend of mine rebuilt his brakes on his 2000 SWB Silverado. He used the Baer kit with 14" drilled and slotted rotors, 4 piston billet aluminum calipers, braided lines and new power booster and master cylinder. I think he spent a little over 1500.00 on his brakes, I spent around 500.00 on mine. The big surprise came when we decided to test them. We were going side by side at 75 mph crossed a line on the road and braked togather. We agreed to stop as if in a panic situation. When both trucks came to a stop, he was in my lane and about a foot and a half behind me. So for my money, I'll stick with my stockers and spend the 1000.00 somewhere else. I thought he did something wrong, so we rebled his brakes with my Phoenix Systems injector, and retorqued all fasteners and repeated the test. This time he had a half a truck length on me. Still not enough to offset the $$. Oh yeah, my old truck only has anti lock on the rear. His was 4 channel 4 wheel anti-lock. He should have smoked me on the test. I suppose that he might not have chosen the correct pad, but he used what they recommended! So before you buy big money brakes, make sure they have tests to back up their sales pitch! And stay away from cross drilled rotors on the street cars! They crack after a couple of years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m396 #00-011 Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 The brakes on my 68000 mile 1991 Silverado were finally needing replacement so I trashed all of the stock components and rebuilt the brakes myself. I put on PowerSlot rotors (stock size) seen on Two Guys Garage, with Hawk Performance pads, factory rebuilt calipers, and new braided stainless lines. Used my Phoenix Systems injector to flush and bleed the entire system. They were a big improvement, but I didn't think they were super bad or anything. Until a friend of mine rebuilt his brakes on his 2000 SWB Silverado. He used the Baer kit with 14" drilled and slotted rotors, 4 piston billet aluminum calipers, braided lines and new power booster and master cylinder. I think he spent a little over 1500.00 on his brakes, I spent around 500.00 on mine. The big surprise came when we decided to test them. We were going side by side at 75 mph crossed a line on the road and braked togather. We agreed to stop as if in a panic situation. When both trucks came to a stop, he was in my lane and about a foot and a half behind me. So for my money, I'll stick with my stockers and spend the 1000.00 somewhere else. I thought he did something wrong, so we rebled his brakes with my Phoenix Systems injector, and retorqued all fasteners and repeated the test. This time he had a half a truck length on me. Still not enough to offset the $$. Oh yeah, my old truck only has anti lock on the rear. His was 4 channel 4 wheel anti-lock. He should have smoked me on the test. I suppose that he might not have chosen the correct pad, but he used what they recommended! So before you buy big money brakes, make sure they have tests to back up their sales pitch! And stay away from cross drilled rotors on the street cars! They crack after a couple of years! Not doubting you, but to reinforce what we learned here. The stock brakes are not bad. Replacing them w/ a $1500 to $10,000 system won't gain you many many extra feet in stopping distance, but will gain you fade control. SuperDave, if you did 5-10 back to back stops, you would start to see where his extra $1000 went. He would progessively keep stopping at the same distance, however, your truck's distance would start to grow from brake fade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDave Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 I understand that completely, but in a 5300lb truck in daily driving, how many times do you encounter that many high speed shutdowns? That's why I believe a moderate upgrade is better than the big money brakes for street use. If I were running on a track, which I would never do in an SS truck, I would spend the extra money for the more fade resistant brakes. Once again, I must say we're driving pickup trucks, albeit a sport truck, how sporty can a top heavy 5000lb plus vehicle be? The extra aggressive pads many of the big brake systems use don't work well in daily driving conditions because they must have a significant amount of heat before they even start working. Again, pick the right tool for the job! Just my opinion, but based on proven facts. SuperDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fun Guy Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 The brakes on my 68000 mile 1991 Silverado were finally needing replacement so I trashed all of the stock components and rebuilt the brakes myself. I put on PowerSlot rotors (stock size) seen on Two Guys Garage, with Hawk Performance pads, factory rebuilt calipers, and new braided stainless lines. Used my Phoenix Systems injector to flush and bleed the entire system. They were a big improvement, but I didn't think they were super bad or anything. Until a friend of mine rebuilt his brakes on his 2000 SWB Silverado. He used the Baer kit with 14" drilled and slotted rotors, 4 piston billet aluminum calipers, braided lines and new power booster and master cylinder. I think he spent a little over 1500.00 on his brakes, I spent around 500.00 on mine. The big surprise came when we decided to test them. We were going side by side at 75 mph crossed a line on the road and braked togather. We agreed to stop as if in a panic situation. When both trucks came to a stop, he was in my lane and about a foot and a half behind me. So for my money, I'll stick with my stockers and spend the 1000.00 somewhere else. I thought he did something wrong, so we rebled his brakes with my Phoenix Systems injector, and retorqued all fasteners and repeated the test. This time he had a half a truck length on me. Still not enough to offset the $$. Oh yeah, my old truck only has anti lock on the rear. His was 4 channel 4 wheel anti-lock. He should have smoked me on the test. I suppose that he might not have chosen the correct pad, but he used what they recommended! So before you buy big money brakes, make sure they have tests to back up their sales pitch! And stay away from cross drilled rotors on the street cars! They crack after a couple of years! Not doubting you, but to reinforce what we learned here. The stock brakes are not bad. Replacing them w/ a $1500 to $10,000 system won't gain you many many extra feet in stopping distance, but will gain you fade control. SuperDave, if you did 5-10 back to back stops, you would start to see where his extra $1000 went. He would progessively keep stopping at the same distance, however, your truck's distance would start to grow from brake fade. But when is fade encountered? Isn't it only when you are hard braking - repeatedly - like when racing on a track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDave Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Brake fade is actually a condition of heat. The heat builds up in the rotor pads and caliper from long or repeated use. Several high speed stops, or stop and go traffic, riding the brakes can even induce it. Brake fade is rare in street vehicles driven in normal driving situations though. The PowerSlot rotors I put on my 1991 Silverado have slots cut into the face of the rotors to release the gases generated from braking heat. The gases, on a non slotted or drilled rotor, can actually build up beneath the pad decreasing friction on the rotor. This would increase stop times. A good braking system includes rotors, calipers, lines, wheel bearing grease, and the fluid in the master cylinder. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning it attracts water. (Silicone fluids are not, and are not recommended for daily street car use) This ability is important as the heating and cooling cause condensation to form in the system. DOT 3 and DOT4 brake fluid will absorb this moisture and contain it in the system. Over time however, the fluid loses it ability to absorb moisture, and the water in the fluid then starts working on the interior of the system in a bad way, corrosion. That is why it is important to change your brake fluid regularly. It is also very important to bleed the air from a system when serviced, or periodically during use. Air in the brake lines cause reduced performance in the system. Also causes the pedal to feel soft, or spongy during use. The factory brakes on our SS trucks is designed by a well educated engineer. They are adequate for the trucks but not in a race track enviroment. That is my point in a nutshell. These are great trucks, but I'm gonna take the Camaro to the track, not the SS. I love my SS and wouldn't trade it for anything, but it is not a race car, or truck. I know the difference. It is great at what it does, and I know I'll enjoy it for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fun Guy Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Brake fade is actually a condition of heat. The heat builds up in the rotor pads and caliper from long or repeated use. Several high speed stops, or stop and go traffic, riding the brakes can even induce it. Brake fade is rare in street vehicles driven in normal driving situations though. The PowerSlot rotors I put on my 1991 Silverado have slots cut into the face of the rotors to release the gases generated from braking heat. The gases, on a non slotted or drilled rotor, can actually build up beneath the pad decreasing friction on the rotor. This would increase stop times. A good braking system includes rotors, calipers, lines, wheel bearing grease, and the fluid in the master cylinder. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning it attracts water. (Silicone fluids are not, and are not recommended for daily street car use) This ability is important as the heating and cooling cause condensation to form in the system. DOT 3 and DOT4 brake fluid will absorb this moisture and contain it in the system. Over time however, the fluid loses it ability to absorb moisture, and the water in the fluid then starts working on the interior of the system in a bad way, corrosion. That is why it is important to change your brake fluid regularly. It is also very important to bleed the air from a system when serviced, or periodically during use. Air in the brake lines cause reduced performance in the system. Also causes the pedal to feel soft, or spongy during use. The factory brakes on our SS trucks is designed by a well educated engineer. They are adequate for the trucks but not in a race track enviroment. That is my point in a nutshell. These are great trucks, but I'm gonna take the Camaro to the track, not the SS. I love my SS and wouldn't trade it for anything, but it is not a race car, or truck. I know the difference. It is great at what it does, and I know I'll enjoy it for many years. You seem knowledgeable. I've been told that the first thing anyone should do when considering an brake modification is upgrade their lines (to braided or something like that). Is this true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDave Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 When you stomp on the brakes really hard rubber lines will bulge inducing a spongy feeling to the brake system. Braided lines reduce this, because they are physically stronger than rubber lines. Think about it, it makes perfect sense. The factory should put these on in the first place, but they do cost more than rubber lines. So it would not be cost effective for the manufacturer to do so. That's why the aftermarket is so popular. Under normal driving conditions, rubber lines are fine. But if you ever change them you might as well go to the aftermarket. I have a set on my 1991 Silverado and they do make a difference. Brake response is faster, and the brakes feel a little harder if you follow me. They inspire more confidence to me, and I know they are more abrasion resistant than rubber. To more directly answer your question, I would invest in better pads such as Hawk or EBC. They have a higher coeficient of friction, but don't make a mess of your wheels with brake dust. Upgrading calipers and rotors is an improvement, but don't blow your budget on them unless you are really pushing your truck hard such as in a racing situation. They really aren't necessary. These are my opinions, but I'm pretty confident that most realistic people will agree. They are better, but they are pretty pricey for what you get. It's not that they aren't worth it, you just won't be in the position to utilize the improvement very often. Unless you drive at Indy! If you got the cash, upgrade till ya puke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fun Guy Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 When you stomp on the brakes really hard rubber lines will bulge inducing a spongy feeling to the brake system. Braided lines reduce this, because they are physically stronger than rubber lines. Think about it, it makes perfect sense. The factory should put these on in the first place, but they do cost more than rubber lines. So it would not be cost effective for the manufacturer to do so. That's why the aftermarket is so popular. Under normal driving conditions, rubber lines are fine. But if you ever change them you might as well go to the aftermarket. I have a set on my 1991 Silverado and they do make a difference. Brake response is faster, and the brakes feel a little harder if you follow me. They inspire more confidence to me, and I know they are more abrasion resistant than rubber. To more directly answer your question, I would invest in better pads such as Hawk or EBC. They have a higher coeficient of friction, but don't make a mess of your wheels with brake dust. Upgrading calipers and rotors is an improvement, but don't blow your budget on them unless you are really pushing your truck hard such as in a racing situation. They really aren't necessary. These are my opinions, but I'm pretty confident that most realistic people will agree. They are better, but they are pretty pricey for what you get. It's not that they aren't worth it, you just won't be in the position to utilize the improvement very often. Unless you drive at Indy! If you got the cash, upgrade till ya puke Okay, if it comes time to replace pads I will take into consideration what you've said here. Regarding the brake lines, one of my chief complaints with the General's vehicles is his mushy brakes. They bug the crap out of me as a matter of fact. So if it comes down to it, I might do the lines, too. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDave Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 I bought my Hawk pads from tirerack.com and gave around 59.00 for the set. You can get braided line kits from Russel, Earls plumbing, and I believe both are available online from Jegs.com Prices are pretty good, and they have a good customer rating. Just make sure you bleed the entire system properly when doing the work and don't mix different types of brake fluid. DOT 3 or DOT4 only I believe. The brake lines do make a firmer feeling pedal, so go for it, you'll be pleased. SuperDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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